 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: TomD
Date: 2011-01-28 16:27
I was up on the Yamaha site and saw that there are two new models of the CSG. The CSGII features a new alternate Ab/Eb lever mechanism and the CSGII-L has in addition to that a low E/F pitch correction key. It doesn't seem that there are any other changes but not really sure.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-28 17:19
OOOooooh, pitch correction.
That's interesting. The low E and F are just a little low on the A clarinet. This is a welcome addition !!!
............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-01-28 18:00
Interessant... from the picture it looks like the e-f correction key has an automatic exchange (when going from f-e) but i wonder if it's thumb operated or activated by the register key? (well, in fact the register key would de-activate it)
dn
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-28 18:30
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/clarinets/bb-clarinets/ycl-csgii-l/?mode=model
The LH Ab/Eb lever runs on the outside of the other LH levers like that found on current Buffets and Selmers. The low E/F correcting device is like that found on Oehler systems in that it's operated by the right thumb for low F and E and the E/B closes off the low F vent, but the low E vent remains open (the low E vent is on the body rather than the bell as on Oehlers).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-01-28 19:40)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-28 21:04
THANK YOU CHRIS !!!! (for the link to the image)
And thank you Yamaha for FINALLY introducing sanity to the Boehm E/B tuning problem. The thumb trigger is such a simple device (maybe more involved on this clarinet than a Wurlitzer). I can't even begin to imagine what took manufacturers this long to try it out.
KUDOS to Yamaha, once again demonstrating how far ahead of the "curve" they are.
Morrie, does your clarinet have one of these?
.............................Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-28 21:45
I've had a very similar design like this in the pipeline for my full Boehms (which I've previously mentioned on here but never made or fitted it as of yet) - but with the bell key as on Oehlers.
I'll be using oboe side G# touchpiece castings for the thumb touches as they're pretty much the right shape and size - the low E and F vents are on the body (both operated by the thumb key, the F vent closed by the E/B and low E by the low Eb key) and the low Eb vent is on the bell.
The other type is the automatic system which is controlled by the speaker key (as on Selmer Recitals or Buffet Elites - both makers had a different approach to this vent mechanism).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2011-01-28 22:54
I hope the Ab/Eb key isn't connected with a nylon pin like on the Buffets because I had them broke on my Bb and A clarinets like 5-6 times in less than 7 years and I finally took it of my Bb clarinet and not much harm there because I almost never used it.
Personally I want to pay little less for my clarinet without the Ab/Eb key
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-28 23:57
"Morrie, does your clarinet have one of these?"
His might not need it.
There are ways to correct the pitch of these notes and other notes acoustically without the extra mechanism.
ps. Never tried Morrie's clarinets, so I don't know exactly.
Post Edited (2011-01-29 00:08)
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Author: CocoboloKid
Date: 2011-01-29 01:29
Yes, the new Backun MOBA clarinet has the low E/F correction, the "standard" Backun model does not, but I'm sure it could be added as an option if one wanted.
The key can be very clearly seen in any of the photos of the clarinet on the Backun Musical Services Facebook page, and you can also discern the mechanism on the photo on the BMS website. (Though the angle of the photo has it hidden behind the E/B rod, you can still see it if you look for it.)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-29 16:37
Dear Skygardener,
I most strenuously disagree with your assertion about the acoustics of the Boehm clarinet. This is inherent in the design from the outset that there would be the compromise on the twelfths left for the performer to negotiate. The Boehm brings the difference closer than the Oehlers which is why the Oehlers have the thumb trigger and Boehms do not. I just believe that this simplification (to make technique quicker) was an unnecessary injustice since the Low E/F thumb trigger is even less invasive than the left hand alternate Ab/Eb lever. Don't use it if you don't need it, but have it there for circumstance that call for LOUD low Es and Fs !!!!!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2011-01-29 20:00
I have a pair of CSGs that I have played for a couple of years now. While the low E/F on the Bb seem to be fine, they are a noticeably low on the A. This caused a real problem during an opera performance in which I had to play these notes in unison with a solo trombone after switching to my A (which had gotten cold).
Noting that Justin O'Dell (at the Univ. of Michigan) plays CSGs, I mentioned this to him and he said he had the vent mechanism put on his A clarinet, but not yet on his Bb. As a result I contacted Tomoji Hirikawa at Yamaha and he said they could add the low E/F mechanism but I might have to send the instrument back to the factory. I was hoping they could do it up at Yamaha's Los Angeles Atelier.
Justin also mentioned that Tomoji was not settled on where best to place the vent hole. I presume from their making it an option now that they have resolved how best to do this.
Maybe this is my excuse to order a new CSGII-L A...
Bob
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-30 01:15
Paul wrote-
"This is inherent in the design from the outset that there would be the compromise on the twelfths left for the performer to negotiate."
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Yes, in current designs on the market, this is inherent. I agree.
I am only saying that there are ways to cut the bore and the tone holes to create different and better results in pitch. Keep in mind that the main reason there has been little progress in this realm of the clarinet is that clarinet players have come to accept it as "part of the clarinet". What incentive do the makers have for a problem in pitch that people have "learned to love"? This is similar to the fuzzy throat Bb.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-01-30 06:07
My thinking: physics makes the clarinet play 12ths, but the even temperament that we use moves the notes around. The corrections needed to even-temper the clarinet's scale are different in the upper and lower registers.
And, the overtones for the altissimo introduce a further complication.
It seems logical to me that all sorts of "fiddles" are required to make clarinets come even close to even temperament.
Bob Phillips
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2011-01-31 09:02
Bob Phillips-
"My thinking: physics makes the clarinet play 12ths, but the even temperament that we use moves the notes around. The corrections needed to even-temper the clarinet's scale are different in the upper and lower registers.
-----
Well, yes and no. In a nutshell, overtones are tunable, not set in stone... until you cut the bore.
Different bore designs and tone hole placements will change the spread of the over tones. They can be made wider and narrower.
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Author: Joseph LeBlanc
Date: 2011-01-31 17:41
Any idea if anything else has been tweaked on these models- bore pitch etc?
Also Paul, Backun has addressed the low F problem with his new horns. Dunno if it goes across all models or is a special option, but it's a fully automated vent mechanism that is triggered by the register key. The low F vent only opens when you play low F no additional keys or fingerings needed. It's a pretty slick mechanism.
That said, still happy with my Yamaha. Glad to see they are continuing to improve them. Can't wait to give them a try.
Joe
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2011-01-31 18:02
Copy&Paste: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Backun-Musical-Services/118868391470528#!/photo.php?fbid=183700954987271&set=a.123867530970614.16413.118868391470528
That looks very similar to the Selmer Recital low F correction mechanism.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2011-01-31 18:06)
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-03-13 07:09
Sorry to bring this back, but I am curious about the difference between it and the original CSG from professional comparison between the two. I didn't find out about the update until recently and all... the whole "they could add the low E/F mechanism but I might have to send the instrument back to the factory" highly piques my interests!
Post Edited (2011-03-13 07:10)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-03-13 18:07
Ok, the additional keys ARE THE ONLY DIFFERENCE...... according to a Yamaha rep I saw recently.
The pitch of the CSGs is amazingly consistent throughout. My only beef is that the low E and low F seem just a tad low, with this being even more so with the A clarinet. If I were to have a "do over," I would probably buy the A in the CSG II model for that reason. The Bb is livable.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: spartanclarinet
Date: 2011-03-14 05:11
I am looking forward to trying these second generation CSGs. After about 5 years, I still think my CSGs terrific. Incidentally, I just got my B flat back from Tomoji. He installed a vent/correction on it. How luxurious it is to play loud, low F's that are in tune! I am in the mood to play an entire recital program in the key of E-flat, haha. My ear is still getting used to the non-flat low E. It registers right on the green line on the tuner. I sat at the piano the other day ringing a D with the pedal down while I played along with just to hear the lovely resonance of an perfect low E. It is really strange how we have put up with this pitch issue for so many decades on our clarinets. There have been some curious exceptions, though. Anyone ever see one of those crazy Buffet Elites with the low F correction option? They even colored the key black to hide it so insecure clarinetists could hide their extra key. It actually worked pretty well, as opposed to the "correction" on the Tosca, which I find is pretty useless.
Justin O'Dell
http://web.mac.com/clarinetquintet/iWeb/MSUClarinetStudio/MSU.html
http://www.music.msu.edu/people/detail.php?id=83
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-04-08 16:04
I saw the new CSG in person at Musikmesse. The C tonehole is now raised, with a totally separate post for the Eb lever. This clarinet is pretty much like an answer to the top tier lineup (Tosca for example)
Other Bell E correction key I've seen on Backun's MoBa clarinets on site and of course the Tosca. The Backun approach to the bell note correction is rather comprehensive, without a need to activate this key via thumb. The linkage rods run along the two joints.
In terms of throat vent correction key, I seen this distinctively on the Buffet Prestige basset, and that of Tokio Josef's work. Tokio Josef fashions his clarinet with a strong oboe tradition it would seem.
Post Edited (2011-04-08 16:06)
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2011-04-11 07:55
I have played the new MOBA clarinet, one of two new Custom Built Backun instruments. It indeed has a low f vent, and it works incredibly well. The vent is closed by a mechanism triggered by the register key.
The other model, The Backun clarinet does not have the F vent, but has a slight variation in the bottom joint taper and tone hole design.
Both these instruments play great, the one I've selected is a Cocobola Moba with the low f vent.
We've got them in London today if anyone wants to play them.
Tom Puwalski, Backun Artist
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-04-11 08:23
My memories are coming back. The clarinets I saw at Yamaha booth were the YCL-CSGIII. These clarinets use cork speaker key pads. In my notes, Yamaha made the bell and barrel with a slightly narrower taper. The register key is more ergonomic, following several other pro horns.
The bell correction keys is a linkage with 2 vent holes. One placed at where E3 is and the other slightly lower. This mechanism, unlike the Tosca with low E correction, does not run itself to the bell. The rod for the correction keys on Yamaha runs only on the bottom joint, and the key is thumb operated. I remember linkages to the spatula keys, but as I've become unable to play on that day, I did not tinker with it sufficiently.
Post Edited (2011-04-11 08:27)
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Author: rgoldem
Date: 2011-11-28 17:14
Where can I find this new model in US? In a google search I could find just European dealers. Thank you.
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Author: hkzr
Date: 2011-11-29 16:35
You would need to email the stores, and i think a special order would be made. As of what I know, all the CSGH-II are with the tuning correction.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-11-29 19:40
I tried Chris's link and it didn't work. Instead, go to:
http://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical-instruments/winds/clarinets/bb-clarinets/ycl-csgii/?mode=model.
If you click on the rightmost two tiny photos below the large photo at the upper left, you can see the "L" mechanism. It looks like there's an automatic low F correction, and a non-automatic low E correction with a key for the right thumb.
For me, getting on and off right thumb keys would be clumsy. The Selmer Recital mechanism is for, I believe, low E and is fully automatic. Ricardo Morales was using one (with a Backun barrel and Bell) several years ago, but he has changed instruments frequently.
I haven't tried the Buffet Tosca, but I have short little fingers and I doubt that I could reach the compensation key, down below the right low E key and considerably shorter.
Ken Shaw
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Author: jez
Date: 2011-12-05 21:47
Before you think of trying the CSG of any model, ask around people who already have them. in my experience, ALL the players I know who use them have had problems with cracking. I think the instrument is fantastic, but I wonder if Yamaha are using suitably seasoned wood.
jez
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2011-12-06 08:49
No cracking in mine, or the three that past students of mine have...seem likes it's a UK thing.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-06 10:06
Hey Jez,
If you asked ME I would say the wood is of impeccable quality and I have had no cracking or wood checks at all. I couldn't say that of several of the Selmers I've had over the years.
In fairness to the above claim I would say that my instruments are from circa 2007. Things 'may' have changed, but I for one would say that the quality of the Yamaha pro line horns is better than any other mass produced horn out there.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: cxgreen48
Date: 2011-12-06 17:57
No cracking in mine either! I'm pretty sure Yamaha has a 5 year warranty though, which seems reasonable to me.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2011-12-06 18:48
No cracking in my two CSG's, and I'm almost at the five year mark.
I've always been very pleased with the quality and appearance of the wood with my Bb and A, and my colleagues (and students!) are always very surprised by their light weight, good intonation, and richness of tone when they try my clarinets out.
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Author: JayC
Date: 2011-12-06 22:45
I'm also a proud owner of a CSG that I bought about 4 years ago. I've not experienced any cracking (knock on wood) and the unstained wood is still beautiful! I live in the mid-west, which is prone to harsh weather; cold, snowy winters and hot, humid summers.
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Author: Bob Barnhart ★2017
Date: 2011-12-07 02:37
I've had my CSGs for 3+ years now and no cracks. However, when they were new I was very careful to break them in gradually, and I'm still careful about keeping them dry and avoiding radical temperature/humidity changes. However, these are all things one should do with any fine instrument.
Moreover, I had them worked on at the Yamaha Los Angeles Atelier and they play better than new. I highly recommend them (or the New York Atelier) to anyone looking to put their Yamahas in the best working order!
I still think these instruments are among the best out there and well worth a trial.
Bob Barnhart
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Author: huda
Date: 2011-12-07 03:22
a little off topic, but im a new clarinet player. ive been playing for about 6 months now, and have gone through 2 clarinets already. i wanted cheap, so i got used on ebay. now my current one went, and im getting a new one. some questions:
1) i wont order used, but still want cheap- im thinking a 100 dollar ebonite one with a warranty; does that sound right for a student?
2)is there any place that will buy my 2 old ones, preferably online?
3)i may be wrong, but i understand that to "play in the key of x" means to change the notes we play in order to raise or lower the key to be the same sound as that of a piano. if so, what scale(how much) do i change in a Bb clarinet?
4)what is ebonite. is it different from ABS plastic. is it superior or less artificial?
5) how do i take care of a clarinet, when holding it, cleaning it or asembleing it?
thank you,
m.y.k.
Post Edited (2011-12-07 03:51)
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Author: Rik
Date: 2011-12-09 12:45
@ huda: very much off topic indeed!
You'd better :
1 read & search on this forum, most of your questions are already answered in other threats, and,
2 start a new thread with your remaining questions, because they have nothing, really nothing to do with the subject that is discussed here.
@ all: I too am delighted with my Yamaha CSG (or should I call it a CSGI now?) since 2 years, it also shows no cracks.
And for those who didn’t go to the Musikmesse, see:
http://youtu.be/0Y_c0GFtwyk
I’m very curious about that thicker barrel and thick-walled bell. I’d like to try them on my CSGI
Gent, Belgium
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-09 14:10
Can't resist good questions.....
Ebonite or bakelite or hard rubber is a vulcanized rubber product. Instead of using an injected mold process (subject to many anomolies in the cooling process) ebonite is cut and reamed like wood so the end result is more exact ...... plays better. We've pretty much beaten the question of using different materials to death on this board, but suffice to say that it is the care you take with WHATEVER material you are using to craft into a clarinet that makes it play better ..... so you can expect to pay MORE for any horn that plays up to par.
Your 'Bb' instrument plays a WHOLE step lower than concert pitch. Or put another way (handy for beginning to undersand ALL the other instruments) if you play a written 'C' on a standard clarinet, the note sounded will be a 'Bb.' Hence it is known as a 'Bb' instrument.
The best advice for 'care' is to take apart your horn EVERY time you play, wiping the tenons and sockets dry as well as doing a few good bore swipes.
..................Paul Aviles
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