 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2011-12-09 23:03
Attachment: FingeringChart_Excerpt.jpg (63k)
I have an old 1904 fingering chart (Chas. Himmelman & Co) which clearly shows clarinet the mouthpiece to be more "football" shaped on the end, and the facing/reed oriented so that the upper lip would be in contact with the reed instead of the lower lip. I thought this had been replaced a century earlier by our current orientation/mouthpiece shape.
Out of curiosity, I flipped my modern mouthpiece around and used my upper lip - surprisingly (to me anyway) - the sound was great, though I had to hold the clarinet at a fairly steep angle away from my body to get the air flowing correctly.
I was surprised how easy it was to play, and didn't really experience any hurdles, the tones from bottom to top sounded just like always. I'm curious if any of you might know of the older shaped mouthpieces, and whether any might still be available (old or new).
Has anyone played on an older design like this? What were your observations?
Thanks!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-12-09 23:21
Not really sure of the mouthpiece of which you speak but the mouthpiece turned around was used in Italy to much more contemporary time (I'm not sure when this completely fell from favor but it's my understanding that this did happen in Italy). This is the reason for the existence of double lip embouchure.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2011-12-11 04:37
Just tried turning over my Vandoren M13 Lyre - didn't work so well...
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Author: denkii
Date: 2011-12-11 05:27
Haha I've tried turning it over before when I saw some old brochure with someone playing it like that. It felt incredible uncomfortable for my upper teeth with the vibrations and all for some reason.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-12-11 12:33
The drawing of mouthpieces and possible reed positions have varied greatly in tutors spanning hundreds of years. One can never assume what the reed position is just from looking at the diagram.
It is said that Stadler adopted the reed down position way back in the 18C due to the accounts of his human voice like sound quality.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2011-12-11 17:40
Thanks everyone!
I'm still perplexed about the whole thing though...has anyone owned or seen a mouthpiece shaped like the ones in the drawing (attached to my original post)? Or - is it more likely this was just an artistic liberty by the artist back in 1904? (I mean - 1904 was relatively "recent" - so I would have expected to run across a few of these by now.)
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Author: Trevor M
Date: 2011-12-11 20:56
It looks like a pretty crude rendering towards the mouthpiece end, like the artist was clearly mostly concerned with getting the keys to look right (looks more like... a... a marital aid with a ligature).
Here are some even older mouthpieces, which are kinda weird looking but fairly conventional at the tip:
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ugw/ugwf1a.html
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-11 22:52
I knew an Italian immigrant that started reed-up, and switched to reed-down when he immigrated to the States because of the funny looks he got.
He had fingers for days, but sounded about the same reed up or down.
His reed-up position never convinced me enough to give it a shot...........
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2011-12-12 03:49
Trevor: Thanks for the link. The photo next to the section entitled, "Structure" (in the link you provided) shows the instruments with the mouthpiece "backwards" (towards the upper teeth) too...though I realize these are much older than the 1904 data being discussed - it still caught my eye.
Buster: Did the person you know use a standard mouthpiece, or was it different?
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-12-12 04:55
A standard mouthpiece- though I could not tell you the brand.
He truly did sound the same using either method; interestingly, the articulation did not suffer in the reed-up position.
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Author: TJTG
Date: 2011-12-12 04:58
Is anybody questioning the lack of barrel/length between mouthpiece and speaker key?
`Wouldn't that be a sign of just finishing up the clarinet picture rather than making a true-to-life rendition of the instrument?
Post Edited (2011-12-12 04:58)
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Author: fuzzystradjazz
Date: 2011-12-12 15:29
Buster: Thanks again! I've found it easy to play with the reed facing the upper teeth, but I find that I begin losing it a bit during technical pieces. Perhaps it is because I learned to play with the reed toward the lower teeth that I find the mouthpiece a bit uncomfortable with the reed facing upward. However, I was really amazed that the tonguing feels entirely natural in either position, and the tone is virtually the same...sure surprised me!
TJTG: Ha! I hadn't even noticed that. The left side of the fingering chart shows the clarinet rotated 90 degrees so that you have a front/back view of the clarinet, and the artist omitted the barrel there too! (For the rest of those wondering, yes...those front/back pictures also show the mouthpiece on "backwards".)
Again - thanks to everyone! This has to be one of the best, kind, and helpful forums anywhere on the Internet!
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2011-12-12 17:02
Some clarinets in the early part of the 20th Century didn't have separate barrels.
Best regards,
jnk
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