 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Maruja
Date: 2011-11-21 12:33
I prefer to practise sitting because
- I can do it for longer
- it's more comfortable
- I can rest my clarinet on my knee (I know...)
However, I have to play standing up at my lessons and in my upcoming exam. I feel that the two modes are not equivalent - there must be slight changes in angle of the arm, fingers etc. In which case, my sitting practice may not be doing me much good (apart from things like recognising notes, rhythm etc.).
Any thoughts on this?
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-11-21 13:10
Just mix it up in practice. Perhaps when you sit, you may be slouching slightly which might account for the vast difference you feel. Of course sitting does push up slightly on your abdomenal space so standing SHOULD allow you the best breathing.
Oh, and DON'T REST THE CLARINET ON YOUR KNEES !!!!! ....... or just do it standing :-)
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-21 14:03
Paul Aviles wrote:
> Just mix it up in practice.
Yup. That's the answer. Although if you have to perform standing, I'd practice more standing up than sitting. "Train as you fight" as I like to say and do.
>
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> Oh, and DON'T REST THE CLARINET ON YOUR KNEES !!!!! .......
> or just do it standing :-)
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> ..................Paul Aviles
>
I do rest the clarinet on my knees (or rather grip the bell between the knees) sometimes. I like that it takes all the pressure off my embouchure and it usually allows me the nicest tone and best tonguing. But I don't get the opportunity to play this way often, so I don't practice it often. Pretty much only use this technique in WWQ. But if you're going to practice with your bell on your knee or between your knees, make sure it doesn't interfere with tuning.
Or, just don't do it. But then again, I like to constantly try new things. One song I'll play double lip, the next I'll play with the bell between my knees, things like that. I believe in having options and keeping those options in practice.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-21 14:54
My lessons (almost half a century ago) were always played standing, I think out of custom as much as anything else. It always seemed to me that it was easier to play standing back then because there was no issue with posture and breathing seemed easier. But it also seemed odd to play standing for my teacher and then always sit everywhere I ever played except for the twice-a-year jury/recital and other rare occasions (graduating recitals, etc.).
These days, I never play recitals any more and always sit in orchestras or bands, so I rarely practice standing up. When I do, it's more to get a fresh point of reference in terms of upper body position - arms, head and neck, shoulders, etc., which all contribute to optimal embouchure and breathing. I do support the clarinet on or between my knees a great deal of the time when I play sitting, so standing occasionally helps to keep me focused on how the clarinet should fit into my embouchure without the distortion that careless knee-resting can introduce.
As others have said, as long as you need to be able to perform both sitting and standing, practice both ways. Concentrate on making the sitting position as similar to your standing one as possible.
Karl
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-11-21 16:16
Bell on knee is ok, really.
It takes the load off of your right hand.
You need to be aware of what's going on at the mouthpiece, though.
I know a couple of folks who "knee their horn" to avoid the embarrassment of using a neck strap.
Bob Phillips
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2011-11-21 17:14
That's an interesting point. I'm not sure why anyone would feel embarrassed about using a neck strap, but straps also have their drawbacks. And for some of us our knees predate the invention of neck straps made specifically for use with clarinets.
Karl
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Author: epssax
Date: 2011-11-21 19:28
Well, some of the finest clarinet playing is done in orchestras and they all sit. Most experts agree that standing lets the breathing mechanism work at top efficiency. So, its a matter of opportunity, comfort, and personal taste. When listening to fine recordings, I can't tell if the clarinetist is sitting or standing.
Been playing clarinet 53 years. Studied with Jim Elliott and James Livingston in Louisville. Been a professional musician 51 years. Play a Buffet R-13. Also play a Buffet tenor sax, Martin Baritone sax, Jupiter also sax. www.thecountryclarinet.com
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Author: trish24
Date: 2011-11-21 20:28
I would love to be able to play/ practice standing up, or even to be supporting the clarinet whilst sitting but can only hold it for a short period of time(been playing 3 years)
Does anyone have any advice about extending the time that you can do this without discomfort?
My teacher talked about a pivot point where the instrument appears weightless but it didn't seem to work for me or maybe I didn't persevere
Is it just a matter of gradually increasing the time in practice?
I have loooked up previous posts but they seem to concentrate on the use of neckstraps and other supports
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2011-11-21 22:01
I don't think that this is too much of a tangent. Sometimes when practicing I stand on two phone books (remember them, pre-Google?) so that I can see my fingers in the mirror. The effect is that I stand a lot better and don't move around while playing. Maintaining a vertical stability helps maintain most other things, embouchure, etc.
Please don't ask why I don't move the mirror down because that would really be a tangent to the thread.
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Author: Dharma
Date: 2011-11-21 22:19
I assume you already have a rubber bumper on your thumb dingle?
I just got one and it makes a difference.
You could tie a piece of ribbon loosely around you bell, and hang a bag with a weight in it, maybe a half a pound. Play with this on for the first five minutes of every session, just for long note warm up. Then slip the ribbon off and your clarinet will feel light as a daisy.
A few weeks at this and you'll either get accustomed to the weight of the clarinet for long periods, or you'll be approached by Holywood to make the next Conan movie
-----
A horse is drawn to water, but a pencil must be lead.
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Author: gigaday
Date: 2011-11-22 20:27
I made my own thumb rest which, for me, it utterly brilliant. The using of it that is. It carries the weight on the entire length of the thumb - from next to the nail back up to the joint with the hand. There's no need for a sling, which I tried, or to rest on the knee.
If anyone is interested I'll post some photos, but as I also think Hahn synthetic reeds are great and have re-padded my instrument with home-made neoprene pads neither of which anyone showed any interest in, you probably all think that I am too weird. ;-)
Tony
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-11-22 21:32
I've heard the augment for sitting while playing a solo but I don't agree. Perhaps if you play double lip you have to for some players but I think it distracts from the total performance because visually it just doesn't look good in my opinion. Yes, if it allows you to really play better I guess you have to but I still think it distracts from the performance to the audience. I heard a comment a few years ago when a colleague of mine performed a solo piece and sat. "The guy just looked so bored sitting there and not moving at all, it was really distracting". Practice standing for a while and when you feel you're getting a little tired then sit. The best of both possible worlds. ESP eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: trish24
Date: 2011-11-23 04:28
Alex,
I'll assume you are serious about lifting some weights.
If so, I am happy to start some weight training if it will help but......
why are all the youngsters in my clarinet ensemble..12, 13,14 yeras old... able to support their instrument for the whole rehearsal? I am sure they aren't lifting weights.. Younger muscles, perhaps?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-11-23 04:44
Quote:
I've heard the augment for sitting while playing a solo but I don't agree. Perhaps if you play double lip you have to for some players but I think it distracts from the total performance because visually it just doesn't look good in my opinion. Yes, if it allows you to really play better I guess you have to but I still think it distracts from the performance to the audience. A few years back I would've said, "Who cares?! It's about the music!" But after seeing some performances, and performing, the visual aspect is atually VERY important, especially to a general public who may not be able to grasp or even care about subtle musical phrasing and nuances. They want to see big sweeping arms in a conductor, moving with the phrase, the violins frantically bowing faster and faster and then see the complete change in demeanors as it becomes subito piano and dwindles to nothing.
Sitting down doesn't afford this. Essentially, you'll see it often, if it's an orchestra or ensemble piece, everyone sits and the conductor is the focus, or if there's an exposed solo that person will be the focus. If it's a solo piece or solo + orchestra, the soloist stands to the side of the conductor and they are the focus. And yes, it'd be boring if they were as still as a rock. Also, it can be distracting if they're all but dancing in place.
The visual aspect is something that needs to be considered, and (dare I say it?!) WORKED ON and PRACTICED! Practice shifting so your bell isn't pointed to the front left or right corners of the audience at all times. Practice interacting with your pianist so you look at each other at the same time and really know when to "lock in".
It may sound crazy, but look at some of the top solo classical artists (instruments which CAN be played standing like violin, clarinet, trumpet, trombone, etc. etc.), watch a performance on youtube, and see how the body language reflects the music and, in some performances, how the audience eats it up and focuses in with their eyes never peeling off.
Hard to do sitting down. Impossible? No. But harder.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: marcia
Date: 2011-11-23 04:48
>If anyone is interested I'll post some photos,
Yes please. A few months ago I tried to make the Kooiman thumb rest work. NO success. Your description suggest that yours achieves (or comes close to) what the Kooiman claims to achieve.
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-23 06:27
It was written:
"Most experts agree that standing lets the breathing mechanism work at top efficiency."
-I would question said experts that state the act of standing creates more efficient breathing/work of the breathing mechanism. Playing in a seated position can perhaps more easily lead to poor posture, which would clearly have a detrimental effect on the breathing mechanism. Yet, standing does not in and of itself guarantee correct posture/"proper" breathing. Neither stance in and of itself creates a better, or more efficient, application of the breath; just as standing does not allow a greater intake, in quantity, of air.
Enough has been said about the other merits of standing in the practice vein that I cannot contribute anything more of pragmatic substance.
-However, following the idea of a seated performance being somehow deficient, or boring, as the audience listens with their eyes, I do take a bit of an opposing view.
It was written in part:
>"It may sound crazy, but look at some of the top solo classical artists (instruments which CAN be played standing like violin, clarinet, trumpet, trombone, etc. etc.), watch a performance on youtube, and see how the body language reflects the music and, in some performances, how the audience eats it up and focuses in with their eyes never peeling off.
Hard to do sitting down. Impossible? No. But harder."
Some performers can actually fool the audience into their "emotive substance" through overtly exaggerated gestures. I could point out some blatant videos on YouTube, but my point is not to degrade any one performer.
Sometimes gestures actually detract from the music; the physical movement creates an ill-placed musical gesture, or at an extreme a very distracting Doppler-effect. It should be said that these can be produced seated as well, but they do appear to germinate themselves more readily through standing performances. (This does not serve to condemn nor diminish performances while standing however lest you misinterpret my writings.)
Also, regardless of your views of interpretation, I would challenge anyone to say that watching Itzak Perlman is any less engrossing than another violinist. Or that Daniel Barenboim is any less captivating seated at the piano.
As for a wildly gesturing conductor, I wish any readers here could have seen/heard the hair-raising performance of 'The Rite of Spring' under the baton of Boulez that I witnessed. His directions where in no way wild as seems to be expected of conductors of this piece by modern-day audiences. I actually went to the concert more than once: I wanted to see what Boulez was doing to elicit such a brilliant realization. His gestures were quite compact and precise; he was actually conducting cross-rhythms simultaneously in each hand with ease! ***He was conducting the orchestra as opposed to conducting at the orchestra in a self-gratifying way some current day Maestros do.
-In summation- and what is the point of my ramblings? In a remote setting, we cannot state that being seated, nor standing, is somehow the more desirable method. If a performer bores while seated- perhaps their "playing" was deficient thus allowing the audiences to search for visual stimulation. Or perhaps an uneducated audience is unaware what constitutes an effective realization and equates skill with visual stimulation. Whatever stance on stance you take, the burden ultimately falls back on oneself to prove why it is "superior" beyond personal opinions.
-Jason
Post Edited (2011-11-23 06:28)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-11-23 06:46
>> And yes, it'd be boring if they were as still as a rock. Also, it can be distracting if they're all but dancing in place. <<
Can you list the rules (or possibly a link) to this very specific and narrow "area" of how much movement is allowed? Especially for each body part. There is a general list or rules, right? Looking at every situation specifically is crazy. Of course considering the possibility that the person looking/listening might just not be open enough to understand or accept something, if it is "against" their for-some-reason-already-determined-opinion, is completely insane!
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2011-11-23 06:53
I also have problems holding the clarinet for lengthy periods. The problem is a combination of old thumb and a touch of osteo-arthritis. I've just ordered a Ridenour thumb saddle, and I'll report on how effective it is when I've tried it for a while. I've been playing around with a modified plastic Lyon C clarinet, which weighs almost nothing, and it's great to be able to play for as long as I want.
Tony F.
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2011-11-23 07:31
trish: probably depends on what kind of trouble you're having holding it up... can't say for sure what the difference is between you and them (tension, endurance, angle, etc.). However, getting into better shape should only make things easier.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-11-23 19:15
>> Of course considering the possibility that the person looking/listening might just not be open enough to understand or accept something, if it is "against" their for-some-reason-already-determined-opinion, is completely insane! <<
Perhaps the best statement made in this thread. Wish it was mine.
-Jason
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Author: marieplayer
Date: 2011-11-25 15:37
when practicing alone, do what ever is comfortable! it will help you focus more on your playing and not whether you are standing or sitting.
because you have lessons and such that require standing, it may be a good idea to start standing and practicing. that way you will not be uncomfortable when going to your lessons and exam
here's an idea: rotate whether you stand and sit playing every time you practice.
good luck!
-ashley
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Author: Dharma
Date: 2011-11-27 21:42
I just came across a book called "The Athletic Musician-A Guide to Playing Without Pain". Available on Amazon - may be worth a look? It has a couple of good reviews...
-----
A horse is drawn to water, but a pencil must be lead.
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