 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-10-26 01:31
Hi,
I have watched this video several times
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weGxlC0YI2I
Has anyone else had work like this done on their instruments. Morrie talks about "shrinkage" and "a little tight" as he was measuring. Are most techs equipped with the knowledge as well as the reamers/tools to make such adjustments?
It seems a bit scary to try such a modification.
HRL
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-10-26 02:36
I would not expect a typical technician in a music store to have the confidence to do what Morrie Backun does, given the punishing level of tolerance, the needed experience in bore shaping and the ability to guarantee his works.
There are horror stories about how boring the instrument out destroyed the horn. People much more knowledgeable than I should be able to talk about how Leblanc's drive for big bore in earlier era was atrocious and unwise...
Having said that, there are technicians that can execute such works. The likes of Stephen Fox, Guy Chadash are some that come to my mind immediately.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-10-26 02:51
It is scary to watch. Bore tools are really cool if they are correctly designed. I have 2 of them for the barrels and the mouthpieces. Morrie, I'm sure knows what he's doing. Those cutting tools are so precise. He talked about 10 thousandths of an inch. When playing a clarinet for 10 minutes or so the wood can swell to 10 thousandths or much more. What a great tech he is and how confident in knowing where to take off just a few thousandths of an inch. Way to go Morrie and Ricardo and thanks Morrie and Ricardo for making a video. Very cool.
It really shows the abilities of great techs and great players.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-10-26 02:55)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-26 06:48
Franklin Liao wrote:
> There are horror stories about how boring the instrument out
> destroyed the horn. People much more knowledgeable than I
> should be able to talk about how Leblanc's drive for big bore
> in earlier era was atrocious and unwise...
It wasn't so much a drive for a larger bore (Leblanc had the 15mm bore Dynamique as far back as the very early 50's and the model remained in their lineup until 2010) as it was Vito Pascucci's asinine belief that the bores on instruments would shrink during shipping from France. Many otherwise good clarinets were ruined when they were re-reamed upon arrival in Kenosha.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-10-26 13:45
Hi,
I was told a story - in confidence - very similar to the one Steve G mentioned by someone that knows... This person said that the LeBlanc L200 (my #493xx plays flawlessly) later models were re-bored as well. The result was a "ruined" line.
HRL
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2011-10-26 16:06
I had it direct from a Leblanc rep at a TMEA meeting( years later) that the L300 were bored out . Ridenour is one who obvoiusly can do voicing and tuning
richard smith
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-10-26 16:53
Hi RS,
Too bad as these are really nice instruments. Yes, Ridenour could do that kind of voicing and tuning.
HRL
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-10-26 17:15
Undercutting tone holes is often used to solve fuzzy or flat individual notes. When done, it should be done carefully and a very small amount at a time. There are many excellent techs who can do this - it doesn't require an instrument maker or designer like Morrie Backun or Tom Ridenour. But it does have a definite effect on the resistance as well as the tuning of any notes the undercut hole influences.
Reaming the bore is a different matter and most techs, in my experience, will avoid it because of the precision tools it requires and the high risk of introducing new problems.
Karl
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Author: genekeyes ★2017
Date: 2011-10-26 17:31
I don't know anything about the Leblancs, but Al Feldman, who was running the the shop for CMI when they had the Buffet franchise, related the following to me on several occasions. Bore measurements were taken on R-13s when they left the Buffet factory and the same horns were measured upon arrival in Chicago. The instruments were shipped by sea. According to Al, there definitely were bore changes between leaving the Buffet plant and arrival at CMI. I would be a little more careful when referring to someone's belief as asinine
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2011-10-26 19:34
genekeyes wrote:
> I don't know anything about the Leblancs, but Al Feldman, who
> was running the the shop for CMI when they had the Buffet
> franchise, related the following to me on several occasions.
> Bore measurements were taken on R-13s when they left the Buffet
> factory and the same horns were measured upon arrival in
> Chicago. The instruments were shipped by sea. According to
> Al, there definitely were bore changes between leaving the
> Buffet plant and arrival at CMI. I would be a little more
> careful when referring to someone's belief as asinine
Bore diameter will change with the moisture level in the wood but only by small amounts (a few hundredths of a milimeter unless the change in moisture is severe) . Leblanc was increasing the bore sizes by 2-3 tenths of a milimeter (up to ~15mm by some accounts) in their reboring process. I think it is reasonable to say that believing the bore size would change by that much during shipping is asinine.
Post Edited (2011-10-26 19:36)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-10-26 19:56
Another key to this interaction is that not only is Morrie familiar with the player, he MADE this clarinet and KNOWS the dimensions that he imposes on his bore and tone holes. This process would be far more complicated by having to look up factory specified dimensions for the model and its vintage (I assume).
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: William
Date: 2011-10-26 21:22
I've only had two accousticians work on my clarinets: Tom Ridenour did extensive undercutting on my Leblanc Concertos and "Mac" McGibbon for some bore adjustment on my precious R13. The size and shape of the auger being shoved down the top joint of your clarinet and seeing shavings falling out as it is turned by hand is a scary experiance. I would only trust the most experianced technicians to work on the bore, however, most local trained ww techs have the tools and can do undercutting. The bore is a more critical venture. Mac had the factory specs for the vintage Buffets, measured and determined that my upper joint had shrunken causing tuning problems above C6. After a few turns of the auger, my intonation problems were solved and the E4/B5 note became much more stable. I've written about Mac, who built, during his day, custom bassoons for orchestral players from "scratch", on previous postings. He was a master of his trade and well-known in the Mid-West as part of the Miller McGibbon Music Shoppe in Milwaukee, WI.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-10-26 23:33
Hi William,
In the video, Morrie did not even mentioned undercutting and went right to the bore. The issue at hand seemed to be that the notes were not responsive rather than sharp or flat. I always though undercutting was used most often with pitch issues. Perhaps I'm missing something.
HRL
PS Riccardo having dirty tenons was pretty funny BTW.
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Author: genekeyes ★2017
Date: 2011-10-26 23:49
I don't want to split hairs Steve but your original comment was "as it was Vito Pascucci's asinine belief that the bores on instruments would shrink during shipping from France.........."
This comment says nothing about the amount of shrinkage and implies that believing that any change in bore size that occurs during shipping is asinine. My experience has led me to believe believe that even a very small bore change can effect how an instrument plays. Furthermore, over a long playing career, I have known players that have had the experience of selecting an instrument at the factory in Paris only to find that it played differently after being shipped to a dealer in NY (as was customary).
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Author: Franklin Liao
Date: 2011-10-27 01:07
We must admit that Grenadilla and Rosewood are susceptible to variation of moisture, humidity, mechanical stress and temperature. Thomas Ridenour made a valid point when he argued for the use of Ebonite in better maintenance of dimensions. On the topic of impacts of warping , my own conclusion is that clarinetists will compensate for the slight changes in the acoustical response, so dimensional warping via transit and setting-in of a said instrument is not even acute issue wise.
Aging however does magnify the natural 'response' of the wood to the aforementioned conditions, and this is where re-fraying/re-boring become more palpable. We must keep in mind however, that a clarinetist is conditioned to his/her instrument, and it is more about meeting the clarinetist's parameters at the end of the day.
Post Edited (2011-10-27 01:12)
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