 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2011-09-27 16:31
Was watching a Broadcast of a Mahler Symphony with one of the Major US Orchestra's, and in the first mvt of Mahler Sym 2, the Principal and Asst. Aim their bells out towards the audience. (it's about 3/4 way through that mvt.) Principal is playing a 2nd leger line high C.
Most of the sound is coming out of the top hole "e", so why bells out????
bells out, now much of the sound is getting aimed up instead of out.
I don't get it......
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-27 16:35
Mahler instructs the clarinetists to play "bells up."
The increase in volume is partly psychological, but when I've heard it, it seems to be louder.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Clarimeister
Date: 2011-09-27 16:42
David - i know which recording you're referring too. When I played Till Eulenspiegel back in the spring on Eb, towards the end there's the screaming answer and call with the low brass and strings. My instructor actually advised me to play bells up on the Eb! I was reading the transposed part out of the Peter Hadcock Eb book, in where he makes the suggestion, "...as loud as possible." This definitely helped project over the low brass and strings during that passage.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2011-09-27 17:02
You must remember David that Mahler also asks the oboe players to do the same thing. Most of the time the oboes and clarinets do it at the same time and are usually playing important thematic material. I believe that it is louder when these instruments do this, it certainly feels louder when I've done it in a section. Plus there is an element of "showmanship". It does look impressive from an audience prospective.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: Christopher Bush
Date: 2011-09-27 17:04
David,
I'm convinced that the “Schalltrichter auf!” marking indicates more than just a wish for dynamic contrast. Yes, there might be a bit of showmanship (similar to holding a triangle high in the air before striking), but I think that the tone quality change is also desired. As you know, it's quite difficult to produce a lovely, fortissimo tone while sticking the bell in the air. Rather than not knowing the acoustics of the instrument, I believe that he's well aware of the raucous sound that will be produced.
Christopher Bush
Prof. of Clarinet - NYU
Princ. Clarinet - Glens Falls Symphony, Metro Chamber Orchestra
Director - NYU Composers Ensemble
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2011-09-27 17:27
>> As you know, it's quite difficult to produce a lovely, fortissimo tone while sticking the bell in the air. >>
Yes indeed. Mahler must have noticed the difference in tone when his clarinet players followed this instruction; therefore I assume that he meant what he wrote and that musicians should follow the instruction.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-09-27 18:30
If you want to see every instrument facing out check out his symphony of 1000. It's insane.
Bring ear plugs.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-09-29 22:35)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-28 02:42
Sometimes Mahler even instructs the bass clarinet to do the “Schalltrichter auf!” thing, which creates some interesting logistical challenges. Makes me want to burst out into a Zoot Sims tenor sax solo or something.
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Author: Luuk ★2017
Date: 2011-09-28 10:31
Hi all,
If you ever tried to pick up a clarinet with a microphone I'm sure you will have noticed that the placement of the mic is essential. If placed pointing up towards the bell the sound picked up is very harsh. When placed pointing down towards the finger holes the picked up sound quality is much more mellow.
Thus playing bells up projects more and enables the sound cutting through the orchestral volume.
Regards,
Luuk
Philips Symphonic Band
The Netherlands
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-09-28 14:02
Mahler was writing for German clarinets, which get a more steely directional sound when held bells up.
This is usually lost when performed on French clarinets (though a notable exception, in my book, was Stanley Drucker).
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2011-09-28 14:14
I just chalked it up to being a fun thing to do. I was taught to sit still while playing and a chance to be a show-off is one not to be missed.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-28 18:15
Eric, what makes you think that somehow German clarinets are more directional than French? I have both types, and I've never noticed any significant acoustical differences, quite honestly, when using the same mouthpiece on both. And from my acoustics studies I can't think of any theoretical reason for such a difference (if that means anything to anyone).
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-09-28 18:52
David,
These passages are marked in the part as such and the sound becomes much brighter and comes out of the thickness. A wonderful effect and great direction from the composer.
More interestingly is the Russian school which does this as a matter of course when passages call for it but are not specifically instructed to by the composer.
I think it adds a lot to the color of the orchestra and I love it when conductors either ask for it or don't say anything when I do it.
Dileep
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-09-28 19:07
Dave Spiegelthal,
Our experiences differ widely. I've noticed a significant directional difference between German and French bored instruments in this regard--both playing and listening live to other German-instrument clarinetists. I think if you tried German mouthpieces and embouchure for the German instruments you'd notice a difference.
One worthwhile caveat: I tend to play what would already qualify as "vintage" mouthpieces, in some ways more "traditionally German" than even the ones we sell today. I think the trend towards a cosmopolitan approach has influenced everyone--including the mouthpieces made, which might very well effect this quality.
But having said that, the German clarinets made in Mahler's day weren't made to be played on French mouthpieces.
Do you have any vintage German mps in your collection? If you have an old Fritz Wurlitzer facing lying around (or "trad" long facing) , give it a shot on your Uebel and see what happens--it might take some getting used to, embouchure-wise, but I'd be interested to know what happens.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: donald
Date: 2011-09-28 19:43
This thread reminds me of a concert i went to in 1989- a performance of the Mozart Clarinet concerto where the soloist highlighted the difference between the differently voiced passages (eg- high/soprano vrs low/tenor) in his interpretation. In a few passages this was highlighted by playing "schalltrichter auf" in low/loud spots. In general the performance was well thought out and tastefully played- but in these passages the tone quality was markedly less refined. Let's say, ugly. It was also very directional- so that the audience in the spots he was pointing at with his clarinet heard a very ugly and loud sound but those out of the direct range heard far less of this "interesting" tone quality. Every so often the soloist would go from left to right while having his bell in the air, creating yet another unsettling and distracting effect that might have seemed like a good idea but didn't really suit the piece... He was playing a french clarinet with an Italian mouthpiece, if that matters (I'm not convinced it would).
So
I'm sure Mahler knew that Schalltrichter auf would produce this tone quality rather than just an increase in volume. I don't particularly enjoy having to do it, but it's definitely adding something to the music. I don't recall it adding much to the Mozart clarinet concerto, however!
dn
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-09-28 20:53
Schalltrichter auf in Mozart...wow. point taken about the potential directional quality, Donald.
A polycylindrical bore played bells up generally results in a pretty aggressive squalk up high and a spread honking sound down low--though with the right reed you can sure blast it out of the bell too--takes a lot of practice to make it sound decent, though (and an unorthodox bit of embouchure work).
Notice that all the jazz guys before the polycylindrical bore played with their bells out--not just the New Orleans players on Albert system, but Benny and Artie too. After the big switch to smaller, polycylindrical and reverse conical bores, even jazz players started tucking the instruments in (see Eddie Daniels, Buddy deFranco, Ken Peplowski, et al). Late footage of Benny shows that even when he played jazz on his R13s, he kept it in compared to his earlier years.
I feel pretty strongly that the industry switch to the smaller, polycylidrical bore was a major line in the history of clarinet performance, making it difficult to get back to some of the timbres that earlier clarinetists used. Schalltrichter auf is one of the best examples for orchestral players, but the history of jazz is a pretty vivid catalogue of sounds and styles that are virtually impossible to gain on a great deal of contemporary equipment.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-29 01:35
As for the more modern players playing 'tucked in' and the older guys playing 'bells out', could it be because modern players have electronic amplification whereas the old guys had to use their acoustic power alone to project from the big band?
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-09-29 01:42
David -
Listen to David Krakauer play Klezmer some time. If you're in the front half of the hall, you'd better have a pair of ear plugs, or, better yet, two pairs.
Ken Shaw
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-09-29 01:58
Possibly, but the point is they could do it and still sound good--even great--with a variety of tone colors at their disposal.
A guy like Pete Fountain, who had all the amplification he needed, held the horn out much like the older players, and significantly had a large bore. He was also noted for his tone.
I don't think this is coincidence.
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: MarlboroughMan
Date: 2011-09-29 02:06
Also worth pointing out that both Benny and Artie, in the heyday of the late '30s, were almost always the sole mic'd members of their bands at gigs. Still played bells up though...
Eric
******************************
The Jazz Clarinet
http://thejazzclarinet.blogspot.com/
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-09-29 02:20
Perhaps, but the quality of microphones, amplifiers and loudspeakers in the 1930s was miles apart from what is available today.
Pardon the digression......
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2011-09-29 02:41
When the Berlin wall fell and Bernstein led a concert of Beethoven's 9th, I saw Drucker play bells up in the slow movement of the 9th!
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