 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-11 21:35
I know I've seen discussions here before on the following, but can't seem to find it using the search feature.
I'm liking my sound when I use double lip embochure, but as I'm new to it, my upper inside lip hasn't developed the tolerance yet of my lower lip to deal with the upper teeth's pressure.
I've tried various things to cover my front upper teeth to ease the discomfort associated with the double lip embouchure, including cigarette paper, floral tape, and a folded up bandaid, but none seems to fit comfortably. In the past, when dealing with lower lip pain, the cigarette paper and bandaid have helped, but I think the fact that "gravity isn't on my side" as it concerns to top front teeth, I'm unable to fabricate a decent covering for these upper teeth that both stays in place, and doesn't get in the way.
Does anyone have suggestions, from products expressly for woodwind players to sports mouth guards, to bubble gum, that might work?
Thanks in advance!
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-11 22:05
I'm not sure what you mean by "gravity isn't on my side." Cigarette paper, once it's completely wet, should conform to your teeth. I've only tried floral tape once and didn't find it any more helpful than cigarette paper, so I can't say how it would work on the top teeth.
Most everyone who makes a decision to use double lip goes through a period of time when they need to revert to single lip whenever the upper lip gets tired or sore. You may only manage ten minutes or so and then have to play the rest of the practice session or rehearsal single lip. Build it gradually - you probably will be able to manage all of this without a covering. If you sit, you can rest the clarinet on your knee, although you have to be very conscious not to let it affect the way the clarinet sits within the embouchure. Be careful at the beginning not to tend toward hard reeds - I find I can manage a greater range of strength with double lip than I can with single, but when I first started to switch and even now if I'm a little out of shape, playing the harder end of the possible causes much more trouble for my top lip than for my bottom one.
Karl
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2011-07-11 22:56
Why not try opening your mouth a bit more, so that you're exerting slightly less pressure on the top (and bottom) of the mouthpiece with your teeth? That can make a big difference in terms of any pain associated with double-lip playing. And then you won't need to use artificial cushioning materials of any kind.
Good luck.
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Author: musica
Date: 2011-07-12 00:51
EZO works well. In the denture aisle
of CVS, Walgreens, or other stores.
Run it under hot water and mold to
teeth and re-use over and over.
I've had a pack if 25 U've cut and
it's lasted a year.
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Author: kimber
Date: 2011-07-12 17:38
Be careful not to worsen your original double embouchure problem by using the cushioning...it may encourage you to continue to use your teeth and even allow you to bite more because the discomfort is now gone. Use pq's advice and improve the lip strength/shape to hold the mouthpiece, not the teeth. Think double lip - double reed. Cushion-y pillow-y lips. Picture teeth 'retracted' and kept out-of-the-way.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2011-07-12 18:14
Just play single lip and save yourself a lot of unnecessary trouble.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2011-07-12 18:55
If you watch Tom Ridenour's videos, he advocates pushing up with the right thumb to give support to the embouchure. This will make it easier to play, using a firm upper lip, but not biting down.
Keep working at it gradually, always being conscious to avoid biting and do not use a reed that is too hard. It is well worth the effort.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2011-07-12 22:12
Pushing up with the thumb also helps in single lip. Instead of "biting down" to keep the mouthpiece in place, you push the clarinet UP against your top teeth to keep the mouthpiece in place, and this (for me) encourages me NOT to bite and keeps my embouchure loose. The higher the note, the more I push up and less I try to bite. The lower the note, the more firm my embouchure.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-12 23:54
So.. (with sarcasm) you're saying I can't be (may he rest in peace) Harold Wright on day 1 of my double lip adventures??!
Dang!
Yes--I'm familiar Alexi with T. Ridenour's youtube videos on the topic--thanks. Tom always has smart things to say IMHO. I wonder if Tom plays double lip. He, like his favorite aforementioned clarinetist, Buddy (Harold) Wright, has a great tone.
Liquorice: I may in fact take your advice a few days/weeks from now, but I want to give double lip a chance. I just think the tone I get from double lip, and its commensurate expansion of the upper palate makes me sound best. I also happen to think it makes my single lip playing better.
What can I say--my first clarinet recording (too long ago to mention) was Cahuzac (a double lip player) doing the Mozart K622. I always wanted that sound.
Musica: thanks for your suggestion on the EZO--which I found in a nearby pharmacy chain today. I haven't opened the box yet, but it's nice to know I have it "just in case." There was a time, when I was an inexperienced teen, 30+ years ago, that I played on tongue depressor stiff reeds and needed to cover my bottom teeth given the pain their uncovered pressure against my inner lower lip would cause. Today, anything that makes playing less exhausting by doesn't compromise sound, like medium thickness reeds, is the way I go.
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Author: Dileep Gangolli
Date: 2011-07-13 03:46
A good single lip embouchure should have the same pressure on both top and bottom as a double lip embouchure and the best way to know that you are not biting with the jaw to make the reed vibrate is to play double lip for a length of time. If you are not biting, the pain in the top lip will dissipate as one builds up the tissue in the top lip.
I myself enjoy playing both ways and so play a week or two double lip and then go back to single lip as the mood suits me. I find this to help in making sure that I am not biting the reed in any way and using the proper strength reed for the mouthpiece I may be playing at the time.
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Author: Claire Annette
Date: 2011-07-15 01:42
I use the same stuff recommended by Musica. It works really well. I cut the forms into tiny pieces, each piece just large enough to cover my two upper front teeth.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-15 04:16
Seriously,
Slip your upper lip out from between your teeth and the mouthpiece and set them on a rubber pad.
Instant cure from the pain of double lipping.
Bob Phillips
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Author: ThatPerfectReed
Date: 2011-07-15 17:22
Hi Bob:
..not sure how to implement your suggestion...
when you say "set them" on a rubber pad, do you mean my (upper?) lips, (upper?) teeth, something else?
maybe you were just making "a funny" --if so, egg's on my face--but you seemed to be talking real suggestions here, and I'm having a hard time visualizing what you said.
Thanks Bob..
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Author: kdk
Date: 2011-07-15 17:41
I think he's saying skip the double lip altogether and go back to single lip.
Karl
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2011-07-15 18:50
Yes,
I don't see the need to suffer biting BOTH lips --because I don't hear any improvement in sound quality using double lip.
To me, although I had a Master class from Reginald Kell, double lip is not worth the pain. I've played bassoon, and the double reed doesn't require the firmness of the clarinet's embouchure.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Clarnetamaphone
Date: 2011-07-17 00:28
To answer the question asked earlier in this thread; Tom Ridenour is a double lip player.
-Ted Ridenour (Tom occasionally will post on this user name when I feel their is an issue in which he could contribute to the conversation in a constructive manner; wanted to clarify who is posting)
Ridenour Clarinet Products
1-888-AKUSTIK
ridenourclarinetproducts.com
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Author: LJBraaten
Date: 2011-07-17 21:55
Hmm... I've been out of the clarinet world for awhile and recently picked it up again, and having lots of fun relearning. I am not the expert that many of you are, but I am fairly competent and have always had a good tone. I'd never heard of the "double lip" until I read this thread, so I tried it. The first thing I noticed is that it opens up the oral cavity behind the front teeth, which I often do when I am focused on producing the best tone. I then did a blind test with my wife listening, played the same piece once with double lip, then with single lip, focusing on opening the oral cavity. She couldn't tell the difference in tone. Of course if I were a bit more practiced with the double lip the results may have differed.
With the above disclaimer, I think it might be possible to achieve the desired double lip tone with single lip if you are having difficulty with the double lip. If you can make a note of the difference in the oral cavity when using the double lip and try to replicate it in single lip you may achieve the same sound. One way is to eliminate the distractions of playing, lip pain, etc. Try forming a double lip without playing, or without the mouthpiece: Notice how your oral cavity opens as you do this. Next, try playing with your normal embouchure, but focus on opening the oral cavity in the same way as you experienced in the dry run. YMMV.
LJ (Laurie)
Laurie (he/him)
Post Edited (2011-07-17 23:49)
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Author: Buster
Date: 2011-07-18 18:56
To all following this thread,
(Please read Tony's link first please. Also view http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Gray378.png as I will refer to it at times.) And this may be a bit lengthy to clearly explain what I wish.
I must preface by saying that I do not advocate double lip as a panacea for all, nor the solution to everyone's "problems."
That being said, it should not be dismissed out of hand by those saying "just put your teeth on the mouthpiece and save yourself the trouble" nor the like. There are those, like myself, that play double lip almost out of necessity, and fairly unconsciously, due to their architecture. And a commonly neglected notion is that there are 2 methods, or better said variations, of playing double lip......... Let me explain.
The typical method, and the one espoused by many as the way, or by equally as many the pointless venture, involves the wrapping of the lips over the teeth. Without proper muscular development, or more importantly, if one has a facial structure as Tony does, this can be quite painful. I do play double lip, but a bit differently due to my facial structure. Having small teeth, rather large lips, and a long distance between my upper lip (the fleshy red portion) and my nose I would say I am "built" somewhat the opposite of Tony. (I must infer this from his writing as we have never met. Just for reference, when I smile you can barely, if at all, see my top teeth.) This causes several issues I must address: oral cavity size, jaw pressure and lip damping.--- I address these using my method of double lip.
(Having small teeth, I need to place much mouthpiece in my mouth to enlarge my oral cavity, when needed, in playing single lip- a bit uncomfortably so at times. This led me to the variation of double lip that I use- initially this allowed me to enlarge the oral cavity comfortably.)
***To simplify, I form what would be considered a normal single lip embouchure, and find myself pushing down with my upper lip and lifting my upper teeth off of the mouthpiece virtually all of the time. I actually began doing this unconsciously, only later realizing it. (I believe I took no note as I have such a large area above my lip that it naturally occurred as I developed my musculature.) This will line up with the symmetry referenced by Tony in his link..... but more of that in a second.***
I don't actively think of "wrapping" my teeth over my lips, though it undoubtedly happens some, but I find that my upper teeth are the basically the same distance above the mouthpiece as my lower teeth are away from the reed- symmetry!. My top lip does "curl" under my teeth a bit, but there is essentially no pressure from my teeth on my upper lip- they lift up as my bottom teeth descend a bit down my bottom lip; this assures me that I am not exerting too much pressure, or "bite" (we all do bite a bit) on the reed- again more symmetry. (I can alter the amount of jaw pressure, or bite, as needed with musculature. My upper lip is a lever of sorts for lack of a better term.) This also allows me to make the minute oral cavity adjustments with more downward "pushing" from the upper lip. This is all accomplished with differing flexion in the orbicularis oris muscle (refer to the anatomy sketch.)
Also, having fuller lips, I must be quite conscious of how much flesh is contacting the reed. The red, fleshy portion of our lips have very little in the way of musculature. Rather, we control their shape with the orbicularis oris muscle surrounding them. I think of forming a firm, central, "oo" shape ( symmetrical in all directions), pushed forward a tad (as if whistling) using the orbicularis oris, with a stretching pull back from the muscles surrounding the orbicularis- a muscular opposition. (again refer to the chart; it is quite a complex system! Consequently, I think this is where the idea of forming a "flat chin" originated. It is a metaphor used to get students to minimize the amount of lip inside the mouth, and contacting the reed, through the opposing stretch of the muscles.- just a theory.)
This places my lower lip in a firm position (from the aforementioned muscular opposition, not the flat chin idea), without too much flesh damping the reed: this is my "base" position. I can then adjust the amount of lower damping (lip shape) using the upper lip. If I push down and in toward the center more, the same will happen with my lower lip, hardening it more. -Symmetry- If I lessen the downward push of my lip, the same happens below, allowing more damping. Again symmetry.
In summation I do not employ double lip in the way most do (nor in the friction method as Tom Ridenour teaches.) Yet, with my "method", I can control jaw pressure, lip damping, and oral cavity size by focusing on my upper lip usage; everything else just falls into place. This works for me because of my architecture. Would I recommend this out of hand for all? NO, just as I would not teach a student this unless they had similar issues they were fighting. In fact I have taught players that use both single and double- whatever works best for them I simply help them develop and culture, letting nature take its' course. As far as using what I do to teach a beginner how much lower lip to "wrap", it would be a no go.
If one were to see me play, it would not appear I was playing without my teeth on the mouthpiece. I use the bottom teeth as my "structural support" just as you all do. And though what I do may sound complicated, or like it takes undue work, I assure you for me it is quite natural. This allows me to enhance resonance (say throat Bb) or de-emphasize it (throat G on the A clarinet for instance) quite easily. One would note little, or no motion involved in all of this.
Obviously I have over-simplified all of this. In viewing the anatomy chart, one can see that there are so many muscles that it would be impossible to state exactly what is occurring. (Which explains why I feel flexing in my cheeks, nose and even eye-brows at times.) Also I have left out the requisite changes in tongue placement and air that fit into all of this. Simply put, I wished to show that there is a reason for some to play double lip- and that there is more than one method to do so.
***Double is not the golden ideal. Single is neither, but is better suited for most I would believe. One simply takes what is most natural and uses it. The embouchure truly should be a simple connection to the mouthpiece; nothing over manipulated nor a twisting-acrobatic act of sorts.
(And for the record, I use what I consider a medium mouthpiece(s). 1.11-1.14 tip, 34-ish length. V-12 4 or 4 1/2 reeds (voiced for my mouth.)
I'll edit this for clarity later as I am sure it must be poorly written.
-JH
Post Edited (2011-07-18 21:46)
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Author: Paul Globus
Date: 2011-07-19 15:40
The last poster is correct. It's a highly personal choice whether to play double or single lip, entirely dependent on one's physical make up. Neither embouchure, properly formed, is inherently superior or inferior. One has to apply some analytical thinking and experiment. And any teacher who presents embouchure formation as dogma should be avoided.
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