 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2011-02-24 15:13
When playing in a jazz ensemble I am sometimes troubled by my inability to monitor my sound. Troubling for two reasons: 1) I depend on the auditory feedback to confirm my notes, and 2) I tend to blow harder than I should to compensate, even though the audience is hearing a balanced ensemble sound.
I am speaking here of a setup where everyone has a mic (alone or shared) and there is usually a monitor with the same mix as the mains. The problem is worst with bass clarinet. As far as I know there is nothing wrong with my hearing, but for the sake of this question we might as well assume there is!
I have seen trumpet soloists aim their bell at a little paddle on a mic stand, and got to wondering if the clarinet can be reflected effectively.
Any thoughts on this?
John
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2011-02-24 15:35
My regular practice is to tell the sound guy to turn me up in the monitors, farther than the level he would have chosen. (He will see no reason for this, because during sound check there is no ambient noise and I can hear myself just fine.) During the set I have to signal him as the noise builds, and after awhile his attention wanders.
Also the band wants to hear what's in the mains, not a mix that exaggerates one instrument. I'd love to have personal control over my own monitor level, and depend on others to set main and band monitor levels as needed. Naturally I don't want to be the guy that has to have his own personal speaker.
John
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-02-24 15:36
Bass clarinet (and bari sax) are difficult to mic in a jazz ensemble. An in-ear monitor might help you hear how you're coming through the mix but it won't solve the initial problem of properly miking the horn. AMT makes a microphone clamp for bass clarinet which holds two mics; using two that might be your best bet, whether or not they're clipped to your bass clarinet.
(I used to bring my own keyboard amp to gigs rather than rely on the main board but that isn't always practical.)
Post Edited (2011-02-24 15:39)
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2011-02-24 15:54
Yes, and to make matters worse I play with a peg instead of a strap. This makes it hard to stay on mic while I turn to cue other players. Then again, with a clip-on you relinquish control of your mic proximity.
Haven't tried the in-ear - at least I'd hear more of the monitor mix and less of the room.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-25 06:32
Maybe you can give more details.
- What is the group? How many players? Which instruments? What do you play (mostly loud, varied dyanamics, etc.)?
- Do you only ever have one mic for you?
- What mic do they use to amplify you (company and model would be good, type would be ok too e.g. dynamic/condenser)?
- Do you specifically have your own mic or do you share it (you said some in your group share, but never said if you do or not)?
- When you are playing, where is the mic located in comparison with you?
- Where are the monitors located? Do you have your own? Who do you share it with?
- Can you have a different mix for each monitor or do all monitors have to have the same mix?
What you describe is pretty common. The main reason is the sound engineer. Occasionally (an extreme but not that uncommon example) they automatically put a dynamic mic next to the bass clarinet bell and then won't understand why it doesn't sound right (I purposely play both very open and closed notes in the sound check). Not everyone is like this, some are good. Some are even interested in what you say. Usually I stay out of their way until there's nothing left to do other than give advice, as I prefer not to "take over" their job. I've seen more than a few sound engineers happy to learn how the sound comes out of the instrument and what is needed.
You say the audience hears a balanced sound, but the monitor is the same mix but hard to hear yourself. If it's the same, how do you really know the audience hears a balanced sound...? Or do you want to hear yourself louder than reasonable to have you on the main out? In that case, how can the other players hear themsevles fine with the same main mix?
I don't think I've ever had the monitor the same as the main out (at least not on purpose for the reason you mentioned).
The way it's usually done in groups I've played with, is the main is done by the sound engineer and sometimes some people from the group go to the audience to hear how it sounds to give suggestions.
For the monitors players ask what they prefer in the monitors, sometimes sharing and agreeing on some compromise if necessary.
It's not clear why playing with the bass on a peg and not with a strap causes any problems. It remains in the same place in comparison with the mic just the same, no? If not, why not? Can you explain more about this issue?
After you give more details it might be possible to suggest solutions/improvements.
Post Edited (2011-02-25 10:12)
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Author: kilo
Date: 2011-02-25 11:03
Quote:
It's not clear why playing with the bass on a peg and not with a strap causes any problems. It remains in the same place in comparison with the mic just the same, no? If not, why not? Can you explain more about this issue?
I believe he's referring to a situation that arises when he has to turn to another player, going briefly "off mic". This is why I suggested a clip-on. But John Morton points out that using a clip-on you lose the ability to crowd the mic and back off — which is useful for both volume control and for signaling to other band members.
I don't know how far you want to get into this, John — ideally you would hear exactly how you were coming through the mix and could just adjust your volume on the horn rather than using proximity to the mic. But stepping up to the mic is so sonically and visually effective! You might be able to use a pedal switch. This is what I did when I used a clip-on and my own amp. I'd use the stage mics when playing with the group then step on a pedal and go through my amp for solos. But this was playing tenor in a guitar band with a stack of amps, a different animal to be sure.
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2011-02-26 06:55
Thanks, I'll try to cover some of these issues, at least.
The group in which this is a problem is typically 4 rhythm and 3 horns (the others being 2 trumpets or trumpet/trombone), the environment is a club that serves food and never goes quiet. The music is jazz standards with a lot of variety - old/new, loud/soft, latin/swing.
It's a monthly gig with varying combos assembled by the leader/singer and rehearsed no more than twice. From this you will infer that dynamics and other such refinements don't play much of a part, and arrangements are whatever you can cue as you go along. It comes close to being a pickup group.
One mic per person, usually an AT condenser mic but sometimes an SM58 or whatever's around. No shared mics - all we share is one or two monitors in front of the band. I erred in saying that you hear the mains in the monitors. Rather you try to get the levels to balance everything in both the mains (as heard by the audience) and the monitors (as heard by the band). Guitar and bass typically have their own amps, placed back away from the horns. It would be impractical to set up different mixes in different monitors - this all has to be handled simply, within the context that is familiar to a generic sound guy.
I like my mic to be placed near the center of the clarinet, maybe in front of my right hand. About the peg - if I turn to catch the eye of another player, the horn swings around and away from the mic, very obvious if you listen to a recording. With my soprano I am free to stay in proximity to the mic as I do this. (but this just one of my demons, beyond the scope of this discussion!) Kilo, I have tried to minimize gadgetry, but you've aroused my interest in the stomp switch, which I've used for guitar. Maybe that will help with the clip-on.
I'll reiterate that all that balancing, checking, listening from the floor, negotiating with the sound man ... it all happens at the sound check in a quiet room. The whole thing should be edited repeatedly in real time, but it's just not going to happen. The sound man is listening to the house, he's not thinking about checking the monitor mix, and "oh, the bass clarinet's a little low, I should raise him again".
I guess what I'm fishing for here is something local to me that feeds my sound back to me, analogous to that reflector that I've seen used for trumpet. I don't want to customize the setup beyond the ordinary treatment that everyone else gets.
thanks
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2011-02-26 10:17
Kilo, the issue of moving away from the mic was clear, but it wasn't clear why this is more of an issue with the peg instead of a strap. With a strap, if someone has to turn the same, the clarinet will pretty much move the same too.
John, I haven't used a condenser in a group exactly like yours. I have used it in other groups, usually quieter. I'm guessing if you have trumpets and/or trombone next to you turning the condenser very high for the bass clarinet will capture too much of the other instruments. Not sure, but this could be an issue and cause you to be low in the mix.
If possible, you can use two dynamic mics, pretty close to the instrument, to cover most of the areas. IME two mics like this will also work better for soprano clarinet. It's not perfect, but many times it's a good option. I've used this in group similar to what you describe and also in a rock band with a three person "horn" section.
Moving closer to and further away from the mic for volume is ok, but is a bit "overrated". I mean, think of an acoustic group, volume can work fine. If everyone pays attention and realize what they are doing, a good mix will allow the player to control it with their playing, most of the time.
So a good clip-on mic can be a great solution. That will also solve the problem of cuing others and losing you mic. For bass clarinet you really need a double mic, or two mics, even if you use AMTs (which is what I use, both their double and single mics). BTW, I have heard their bass clarinet clamp to attach two mics might not work with some models (maybe even new Buffets), so better check first. I haven't tried it.
I guess I think differently (from kilo) about the "stepping up to the mic" vs. using a clip-on mic. The visual effect of this is meaningless to me. If you always sit but stand for a solo, that's fine, no problem.
It should really be no problem for any half decent (actually even pretty lousy) sound engineers to put different mixes in different monitors. As long as the mixer/console/etc. allows it. Unless it's physically impossible (is it?), I don't know why it's impractical. But you have to agree with your monitor-mates on the level, not to get something too loud for them. In addition you can have yourself (if possible) a bit "too loud" in the sound check and then it would be better in the concert...
For your own monitor, I guess regardless of of mic you can get maybe something like a small preamp with a seperate volume control monitor/headphones output to hear yourself. But then you have something stuck in your ear when you play.
Good luck.
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Author: John Morton
Date: 2011-02-27 21:51
Thanks, this has given me some ideas. Another one: next time this comes up I'm going to borrow a Hotspot monitor, a little speaker on a stand that you point right at your ear.
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