 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2011-01-01 14:09
For my wife's and my birthdays, and our anniversary, we have decided to replace our ancient stereo. I auditioned smaller speakers at an audio shop, using a CD of Puccinini. This ended up like play-testing mouthpieces.
Speakers A $700/pair: wonderfull winds and strings; unappealing voices like listening through a cardboard tube; no bass to speak of.
Speakers B $850/pair: good instruments, good voices, definite bass - balanced good but not excellent sound.
Speakers C $1250/pair: unappealing instruments; wonderful voices; some bass.
I wish I could clone the instruments from A, voices from C, bass from B, but that sure can't happen.
These will go in our 14' x 15' (4.25m x 4.5m) living room, and will never be "cranked up" - neither of us particularly like things loud.
Any comments?:
- What should we expect to pay?
- Does anyone have any favorites?
- What about using a pair of "studio monitors"?
HNY
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Author: Koo Young Chung
Date: 2011-01-01 18:45
Any of these is PSB?
If not,I strongly recommend PSB speakers.
I've followed high end audio system for 10 yrs,and PSB has very good reviews thru out years.
Some of my friends got PSB and very happy with it.
Unlike some high end speakes,PSB are reasonably priced.
I'm sure you find very good one under $1,000.
http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Image-Series
Post Edited (2011-01-01 18:47)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-01 18:57
...and soon we'll learn that even a Privilege bass or a Tosca is easily the cheapest piece of equipment in an audiophile's music room...
--
Ben
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2011-01-01 19:00
Klipsch (spelling) are known to sound quite good at lower volumes. I bought Bose and I like them a lot, but they need a certain amount of volume before they start to sound good, so I'm not sure I made the right choice. Like instruments, it seems to be largely a matter of personal taste.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-01 19:15
Speaker-wise, I also like Klipsch, and Polk (made, or at least distributed, right up the road in good 'ole Bawlmer, Murrland!).
Ralph, you need a nice 1970s/80s open-reel tape deck. Go analog, baby!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-01 20:41
Oh God, audio is worse than mouthpieces, reeds, and clarinets put together.
But,
For smoothness and true reproduction of most frequencies I have been a fan of many 'planar' type speakers, either eletrostatic or more simple dynamic designs. Amongst the more accessible in price are Martin Logan (electrostats) and Magnapan for the more dynamic design. The main problem besides money is one of space. It becomes clearer as you go along that you need almost as much room behind these speakers as you have in front to achieve their ideal acoustics.
Stick with your Bose Wave..........for the LOVE OF GOD !!!!!
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: rgames
Date: 2011-01-01 21:40
Before you spend a lot of money on components remember that 90% of the acoustic response is dictated by the room.
For example:
Differences in frequency response of mid-level and high-level speakers is maybe 1/2 dB.
Differences in frequency response due to room acoustics can easily be more than 10 dB.
So....
If your listening room is untreated I'd spend money there before worrying about differences between components from different manufacturers.
rgames
____________________________
Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-01-02 00:10
I spent some time after reading Ralph's initial post futilely ransacking my computer files looking for some stuff I'd downloaded that says essentially what rgames' post says: in the universe of 'stuff that matters' re audio, the room you're listening in makes the biggest difference by far, followed somewhat distantly by speakers, followed VERY distantly by everything else (amplifiers, setups, etc). Also, the differences between the room you're auditioning speakers in, versus the room you'll bring them home to, is crucial as well. (Actually, I find this equally true with mouthpiece trials.)
Also, if it were me (a relatively unsophisticated listener, in audiophile terms, and with age-related hearing loss to boot) looking for speakers, I'd wonder if it would make sense to include some sort of equalizer in the purchase, to compensate for the frequencies I've lost hearing in--the better to tailor the sound of the speakers I would end up taking home.
It's a complex issue (he said, 'helpfully'). Good luck, Ralph, and if I run across those articles on my work computer, I'll post or provide links.
Dave: reel to reel tape recorders?! What on earth for! (always wanted one, to be honest...just can't imagine what you'd do with one, other than watch the nifty moving parts bathed by the soft glow of the VU meters)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-02 01:39
Doug, I'll try not to hijack the thread, but I was only half-kidding about open-reel tape decks. I have about eight of them, mostly because I'm an eccentric old fool who is trying to relive his youth (the 1970s), but also for the sound (pun intended) technical reason that I do a fair amount of live concert and jazz/rock band recording, and analog tape requires no supervision (I can set rough levels, turn on the machine, then go up on stage and play the gig without worrying too much about the levels); plus, tape 'saturates' nicely if overdriven (akin to the reason so many guitarists prefer tube amps over solid-state amps).
To make matters worse, I've been transferring the many nice vinyl recordings I have (a.k.a. record albums or "LPs" for you youngsters) onto another obsolete medium (open reel tape) because the latter medium is actually quite good for long-term safe storage of music as long as the tape was decent quality to begin with, and is kept in relatively benign temperature and humidity conditions.
In the end, I probably have these dinosaurs for the nifty moving parts and glowing VU meters, as you put it so nicely! I'm a mechanical engineer and these beasts just appeal to me, as representations of high-quality electro-mechanical machines from an era before software ruled the world.
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Author: BflatNH
Date: 2011-01-02 02:37
If you can discern the difference, you may need to get the best you can in order to be satisfied. Nothing is as revealing of detail as electrostatic (e.g. Martin Logan and others, as Paul mentioned, and they may tend to be directional) and there have been smaller hybrid designs with the electrostatic at the midrange and up while the bottom (<C3) is handled by a cone speaker. Also, in the old days, if you liked a system except for poor bass, you could pair it with a separate woofer, etc. BTW, if you could, I would suggest that you favor speakers with rubber, not foam surrounding and suspending the outer edge of the cone as the foam rots out in 15 years or so. Take the time to audition the best you can so you know what can be had, and buy cheaper if you don't miss what the more expensive ones offer.
PS: I have a 70's Ampex ATR-102 (~200 lbs) reel-to-reel if anyone is interested
Post Edited (2011-01-02 02:46)
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Author: awm34
Date: 2011-01-02 11:35
I recently downsized my stereo as my "big" system was seldom used in our new home. Sold high-end integrated amplifier & speakers and purchased used, mid-level gear -- all on http://www.audiogon.com/index.html. My results were (unexpectedly) outstanding.
I'd suggest you try their search function (for Speakers: Monitors) as high-end audio guys have G.A.S. even worse than clarinet players. Many are engaged in an eternal quest for ideal sound thus good buys abound.
Alan Messer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-02 14:09
This may answer some questions............or cause divorces.
http://www.magnepan.com/magneplanar_technology
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2011-01-02 14:32
My friend Lew Lipnick, a noted audio consultant recites this doggerel:
"No highs
No lows,
Must be Bose!"
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-01-02 16:30
Paul Aviles wrote:
> This may answer some questions............or cause divorces.
>
>
Just one of the many ...
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2011-01-02 19:12
Paul Aviles wrote:
> This may answer some questions............or cause divorces.
>
> http://www.magnepan.com/magneplanar_technology
Hmm. Wouldn't such a sophisticated piece of audio playback require equally sophisticated input? When we have a 16bit 44.1kHz Stereo source, how am I supposed to [I]locate[/I] a specific player?
As good as many audio equipment may sound, if the source is compromised...it's like selling a magic photo enlarger that would turn a blurry vacation shot into a crisp high dynamic range picture.
Besides, nothing, really nothing beats the acoustic range experienced in a live setting. Audiophiles, sell your speakers, buy concert tickets instead!
--
Ben
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2011-01-02 19:56
"no highs, no lows, must be Bose" I've heard it 1000 times, yet, for me they still make acoustic instruments sound acoustic better than any other speakers I've heard, outside of some multiple sets of speaker systems running together.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-02 20:21
Dear Bubalooy,
Ah, German high end speakers. I don't know if it is still available, but at one time Magnat made an omni-directional speaker whose main sound generating element was a ball of plasma. I never heard them, but auditioners would refer to the smell of "a recent lightening strike," because a by-product of running a plasma source is ozone.
.....................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-02 20:38
For what it's worth, I was recording one day in LA and the recording studio had these speakers called NHT. I normally don't notice the sound quality of speakers, I'm simply making sure my parts of the recordings are fine.
Well I was amazed at the quality of these speakers and asked the recording artist what the were. NHT stands for "Now Hear This." A week later I replaced my speakers with NHT's. Each speaker weighs around 125 pounds. Yes this was overkill. In each speaker were 3 tweeters, a 5 and 6 inch mid range, a 4 inch speaker and a tweeter in the back of the speaker along with 2, 10 inch subs on the sides.
You can still get NHT speakers. They are surely something to take into consideration. Sadly the big 125 pound speakers aren't being made anymore, but I hear from reading magazines the smaller models still rock with an amazing crisp sound and the prices are pretty decent.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2011-01-02 21:38
Bob Bernardo wrote:
> You can still get NHT speakers. They are surely something to
> take into consideration. Sadly the big 125 pound speakers
> aren't being made anymore, but I hear from reading magazines
> the smaller models still rock with an amazing crisp sound and
> the prices are pretty decent.
Or you can get a pair of 300 pound Acapella High Violoncello II speakers. The price is indecent ... and they're not their highest price or heaviest By a long shot (their top end costs more a bit more than what I paid for my house).
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Author: beejay
Date: 2011-01-02 21:57
I inherited an ancient Quad 303 amplifier and added a couple of modern Quad bookshelf speakers. I have never heard such warmth and fidelity from a hi-fi system.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-02 22:56
The High Violoncello II speakers have a rather suggestive look http://www.acapella.de/en/hornspeakers/violoncello_II.php, though nothing like their top model, which is larger than some houses http://www.acapella.de/en/hornspeakers/sphaeron.php. Even with the "smaller" version, the company promises that "When the music is soft, the sounds caress your skin. When it changes into a powerful fortissimo,the listener will be swept away to the epitome of joy." http://www.acapella.de/en/hornspeakers/sphaeron_excalibur.php
Of course the High Violoncello II costs $80,000 per pair, plus $123,250 in supporting equipment, including speaker cables at $25,000 per pair and a power cord at $8,300. http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=646
Talk about clarinet GAS!
Ken Shaw
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2011-01-03 09:31
Very cool Ken! Never heard of them. I'll have to find a place around Los Angeles that may carry them. They really look space age! oh I am running a tube amp to mellow the sound. Nothing like tubes.
Designer of - Vintage 1940 Cicero Mouthpieces and the La Vecchia mouthpieces
Yamaha Artist 2015
Post Edited (2011-01-04 04:11)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-01-03 13:00
Over the years I've had a number of different sound systems in the room where we used to listen to music. That room is now the video room and most music we listen to is via DVDs with video. I don't have a specific sound system attached....it's just the speakers from the video. When I really want to hear the music for itself I use my computer system which is a Mac with Klipsch THX speakers including a sub. The sound I hear is as good as any I've ever heard. OR, I listen with earphones. In the basement I use speakers I built myself several years ago when I was "into that".
(Never even considered Bose as I always felt they were overhyped and priced.)
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-03 17:05
I have only one thing to say about the "Dr. Seuss" speakers that cost more than my house:
"Every time I think I'm out, they drag me back in."
Darned high-end audio.
Need a pass to CES!!!!!
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-01-03 20:31
Ken, thanks for the links, which demonstrate conclusively (to me anyway) that the very rich need to be paying MUCH higher taxes.
Here's my dilemma, though--so, I get my $8,300 power cord, and my $25,000/pair speaker cables. So a mere $33,300 takes care of 24 inches of wiring from my electrical socket to my $80,000 speaker system (that's before 8.25% NYC sales tax, which adds another $2,747.25 to the total).
But what do i do about the thousands of miles of wire and circuits and transformers between my electrical socket and the power company, that introduce all that plebeian noise, the voltage irregularity, peaks and dips, and other types of electromagnetic cooties into the current running into my house?
It seems clear to me that you're never going to get a truly perfect sounding audio system unless you can generate your own power, and have the folks at Acapella design all the wiring in between. And, for superior damping, I'm going to have to set my house on top of a box-car load of Acapella's exclusive "Fondata Silenzio" acoustical dampers.
Thinking realistically, this appears to be out of my reach, at least for the moment. Truly, never to have that level of audio perfection in my living room is a very disheartening prospect with which to start the new year. I shall bear up....somehow.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-01-03 20:57
Ralph, head over to Almas Hi-Fi on Woodward and audition a few different sets of Bowens + Wilkins speakers.Excellent sound/cost ratio. I bought a new setup when we moved to the new house and I am quite satisfied.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-01-03 21:07
Bought a JVC cassette deck at Almas years ago.....still works.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-01-03 22:57
Hi Ralph,
A basic question. What were your speakers before? This may give us an idea what your ears have been conditioned to in the past.
I have always enjoyed Advent speakers and for a little while, used Small Advents with a powered sub-woofer. My office setup is an Advent powered sub plus 5- Polk R15s as a surround.
Amazingly, I have a Yamaha sub/stat with the large screen in the LR. These speakers really are great.
Good hunting.
HRL
PS Jamieson's in Toledo on Monroe has always been good. Not cheap though!
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2011-01-03 22:58
The folks at Almas are good people who sell good gear. I love the sound of the audio system I got. My wife wanted one of those Bose home theater setups, but after playing some male vocal cds for tests, I couldn't justify the money for that poor of a lower midrange performance. I went over to Almas several times to listen to different setups within my budget. I came home a happy customer.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2011-01-04 06:31
Good advice I once received:
1. Set a budget
2. Listen to everything under that budget
3. Expect to be surprised.
I have bought many different brands on this basis. Fwiw, the only speakers I've bought twice are Monitor Audio, which I think are excellent for the price (and size, if you're looking for small equipment). Cyrus kit is nice too.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2011-01-05 03:00
I couldn't find this post - don't know what happened to it. But here it is.
Experience tells me to go listen for myself, after at least a day away from work and off the freeway. But one juvenile salesman cranking up the volume can end the demonstration for a while.
In summary:
Bowers & Wilkins
PSB
Klipsch
Bose Wave (you gotta be kidding)
Magnepan
NHT
Quad bookshelf speakers
Acapella High Violoncello II (I could *hire an orchestra* for this much)
Magnat
Van Alstine
Almas Hi-Fi on Woodward (Thanks, Jeff!)
Jamieson's in Toledo (Thanks, Hank!)
Advent
Polk
You don't want to know what my receiver is. Old speakers are OHM E's.
Many Thanks for all of your input!
Post Edited (2011-01-05 03:03)
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2011-01-05 04:27
I use PSB speakers in my office/studio.
Main theatre/music listening setup is Paradigm speakers. Both makes are Canadian, and known to be good bang for the buck.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-01-05 10:48
Hi Ralph,
But you know, they say an amp is just a "wire with gain" so nothing frightens me.
I have always been a best-bang-for-the buck kind of guy. My ears are still good but trying to pick out the 3rd chair triangle player's solo is not what I strive for. The days of the gigantic infinite baffle and folded corner horns (some sweet sounds to be sure) are pretty much past except for a purists.
Ralph, I know you to be a no nonsense guy and expect you will come up with a very nice, small-footprint system that will likely come in under budget.
Hank
PS You and I are long past needing "lease-breaker" sound systems!
Post Edited (2011-01-05 14:13)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2011-01-06 11:09
Hi Ralph....As Hank mentioned...Yamaha. Also, don't forget that what you hear in a store may not transfer to your room at home.
Bob Draznik
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2011-01-06 11:20
I can't recommend Yamaha audio gear. Both Yammie items I've owned, an integrated amp and a CD recorder, died much earlier than they should have. Come to think of it, so did the Yamaha motorcycle I had years ago.......
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2011-01-07 00:30
I would never have considered Yamaha sub/sat system until I heard it and then got a tremendous price. I have three Yamaha amp going strong after many years as well as a YTS 475 and CS Custom clarinet.
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Author: DougR
Date: 2011-01-07 17:16
Best advice about this sort of thing I ever read was from a guy named Peter Aczel, who runs a site called "The Audio Critic" (though he's mostly inactive now).
In testing among different audio components of the same type, he'd always make sure first and foremost that everything was playing at the exact same acoustical level (very important, since differences in volume can skew audible results) and then switch randomly (and blindly) back and forth among the components being compared, to minimize influences of e.g. brand name, looks, etc.
Frankly, I'm not sure how one would achieve volume parity in the real world (i.e. in a "listening room" at the dealer's), without test equipment. I suppose one does the best one can.
Ralph, I'll be interested in what you end up with, and also what your listening process was.
Good luck!
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2011-01-07 18:36
Yeah, there is no perfect way to do this sort of thing. I worked for an audiophile who convinced me that even the presence of other transducers in the room will swallow the sound of those playing. Even if you don't buy that one, there is the real consequence of placement (distance apart, distance from rear wall, distance from side walls, toe-in etc.) that cannot be accomplished with more than one pair at a time.
Oh well.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2011-01-07 20:30
I have commercial CDs of concerts recorded from warbling short-wave radio, and I've learned a lot from acoustic recordings. I would never give up the Heifetz acoustics from 1910, let alone the five precious sides Joachim made in 1903 http://www.classicalnotes.net/features/joachim4.html or Draper's acoustic of the Concertino or Hamelin's Debussy http://clarinetclassics.com/home/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=emailfriend&ref=CC0005.
The ear adjusts quickly and supplies what's missing. Certainly I have the best sound reproduction equipment I can afford, but obsessing about it is GAS. I read an issue of The Perfect Sound or Stereophile maybe once a year, more for amusement than edification.
Get decent equipment and listen to the music. Or read http://xkcd.com/841/.
Ken Shaw
Post Edited (2011-01-07 21:06)
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