 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-11-22 22:31
I realised (it was easy) that above a certain level of skill good sound is ONLY a matter of money. I mean it is very, very expensive to find what is certainly for you. You can accomodate to any equipment and get good results with a lot of hard work. But if you have money, you can simply save time and needless efforts.
It's just a complaint, not a real topic.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-11-22 23:05
Ummm . . . in my experience you can get a good sound on a Vito, or even a Bundy, as long as you put a good mouthpiece on it. When I put my custom mouthpiece and barrel on a Vito, I have a hard time telling the difference myself.
Ken Shaw
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Author: pewd
Date: 2010-11-22 23:23
I disagree.
Good sound requires solid fundamentals, much practice, and attention to detail.
You can not purchase good sound, it comes from within.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2010-11-23 00:17
I think moreso a matter of lessons. I don't wanna toot my own horn (pun intended), but I think I have a pretty good sound. My technique however is probably three steps above "crap". Unfortunately, as a kid I was forced into piano lessons by the parental units and when I showed no interest in piano they said, "Fine. No lessons then." It was a "piano or nothing at all" situation.
Of course, I never was that into clarinet anyway till a few years ago, however I'm sure I'd be much further along now if I had had the opportunity for lessons at a younger age and had taken them steadily.
So take solid fundamentals, practice, and attention to detail, and it still doesn't do much if you don't have some good direction and guidance to help you get to the next level.
There's a large number of musicians out there. Raised poor and raised rich. And they all can practice. But having a good teacher will get your further than doing it all on your own.
Alexi
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2010-11-23 00:17
I agree that the sounds come from one's heart, but there are so many "accessories" for clarinets that it is indeed tempting to try out barrels, mouthpieces, bells, etc. . I have a good Van Doren m.p. and stick with that. I have my favorite brand of reeds also. I know there are even microphones that will change my sound, but do I want to change my sound or tone? No.
Carol
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-11-23 00:35
Equipment is not everything. Better equipment CAN lead to better sound, but a good player will get better sound from a cheap instrument than a bad player will from the most costly gear.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-11-23 00:37
I don't agree. You can give a lousy player a $6000 Buffet Tosca equipped with another $2000 worth of custom bell, barrel, and mouthpiece and they will still sound lousy.
Post Edited (2010-11-23 00:37)
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-23 00:41
I would have to agree- money is definitely one of many factors that contribute to good playing/sound/technique.
Just observing that nearly every professional musician uses an instrument that is expensive (ie. not "student model") for the vast majority of their performances, I would have to say that there does seem to be a pattern.
Also, the time and money it takes to find the right mouthpiece/lig/reed/instrument also adds to the end cost. Even if you play a (for example) Vandoren 5RV mpc that sells for only about $80, you still probably spent a lot trying/buying other pieces before you settled on the 5RV.
Also, the cost of keeping your instrument in good shape...?
Also, the cost of buying reeds...?
Just like everything in life, money helps. It doesn't do everything for you, but it helps.
[disclaimer- I make/sell mouthpieces.]
Post Edited (2010-11-23 01:18)
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Author: clarinettefaerie
Date: 2010-11-23 01:00
In (only) a few instances, I do agree with you.
But.
During my high school years (as well as during my first year as a clarinet performance/music ed. major), I was playing on a $1000 Buffet clarinet with a $60 mouthpiece. I was placed among the top 10 clarinetists in the state of Illinois at IMEA my senior year, and was selected to be one of the few entering freshmen at ISU who received music scholarships. One of the clarinetists in my studio is great, and she plays on an E11 and a vandoren mouthpiece. I think it just depends on the player.
In my experience, the professional set up comes AFTER development of the technique, tone, etc. Learning to play well on a mediocre set up makes the "nicer" set up that much more awesome and worth the money when it happens. It drives me nuts when I see these loaded parents go out and buy their kids the $3000+ horns, and the kids turn out to be horrible, and the parents scratch their heads as to why.
When it comes to the way over the top horns and mouthpieces, those are barely worth it, even in college. For some, it isn't worth it. But for others like me, it just gives that extra "oomph" that pushes you ahead of everyone else. I recently got a Buffet Tosca and a $300 Pyne mouthpiece. Even though I wasn't necessarily playing on a bad set up by any means, this has made a world of difference in my tone, and has already pushed me ahead of almost everyone.
So, it's hard to say if money really does make the musician. We want to say it doesn't and it shouldn't... but sometimes, it really does. GAH! :(
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-11-23 01:59
Go ahead and throw money at it. It won't make you any better, but it will help to keep the companies in business so the real musicians have a place to buy what they need.
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-11-23 12:01
Expensive equipment isn't everything, but it sure doesn't hurt.
My daughter started playing on a Bundy plastic clarinet with a Vandoren mouthpiece. She did fairly well and had a nice sound, but when we eventually got her a nice Buffet, one could hear an immediate difference. No, her practice time did not increase.
A while back, I posted a long message about my experiences teaching band in an urban environment. At the time, I mentioned my fears that in the world of music education, we are becoming a nation of the haves vs. the have-nots. In many communities, parents simply cannot afford to buy an instrument. When they can, it's often a cheaper one. This might work in elementary and middle school, but it doesn't work as well when trying to perform advanced literature in high school. I see so many cases of high school musicians performing on instruments designed for beginners, using plastic mouthpieces and Rico Royals. The parents can't afford anything better, and private lessons are not in the budget. Forget about regular maintenance--it doesn't happen. These kids really try, but when they go to festivals, there's no way they're going to do as well as kids from wealthier areas who take private lessons and play on advanced horns with nice mouthpieces (and good reeds).
For those who play on a higher level, more expensive equipment isn't everything, but it doesn't hurt. I wonder if there is anyone today who has won an audition for a major orchestra playing on a basic "not touched up" R-13 and a mouthpiece costing less than $125. I think it's certainly possibly to play on a very high level with less expensive equipment, but I think "more expensive" does give one a slight edge.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-23 12:34
I think good playing is mostly a matter of good practice, though the quality of the equipment does matter. But who spent the money, and when? The only instrument I own for which I paid full retail is my Yamaha Clavinova CLP811 electronic piano. The only other instrument I own that anyone in my family bought for the full retail price is a 1957 Conn Director Bb clarinet (a step-up wooden student model) that my dad bought for me new when I first started as a beginner.
A discriminating picker who haunts yard sales, flea markets, estate sales and junktiques stores can find first-rate equipment used for a fraction of the price new. Not everybody wants to take the time to do that kind of hunting. Time is money, too. But if you play the clarinet, you have the patience of a snake and you like to scavenge, the used market is a great way to go. Of course it's also a great way to waste money on garbage. I wouldn't want to try to audition for a grammar school band on my worst flea market mistakes!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-11-23 13:03
I think that having the very best equipment will be of real value only when you have gone as far as lesser equipment can take you, and most of us will never get that far down the path to perfection. My favourite clarinet is a 100-year-old Jerome Thibouville-Lamy that I bought on the site that may not be mentioned for around $100. It needed a repad and some TLC, and when fitted with a decent mouthpiece I can produce sounds that are the envy of friends with much more expensive gear, mostly R13's and E11's. It's not all me, a friend used it with his own mouthpiece and declared it a better instrument by far than his E11. He's a player of many years experience, and I respect his opinion.
Tony F.
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-11-23 13:49
I think it can be expensive to find that first great part of the sound (the mouthpiece). Sometimes you come right off and get the perfect mouthpiece for you, sometimes you can try mouthpieces from other friends/colleagues, or maybe you're unfortunate and have to keep trying and trying mouthpieces that you think are right, and you end up spending more money in getting them sent out to you constantly! (personal experience lol)
I will say that the instrument itself can lead to an easier time playing the instrument, but once you practice and get "your" sound, you will most likely sound the same on any instrument that you play, especially if you are using your setup. I recently tried some buffets (R13, Vintage, Tosca and RC Prestige) and noticed that I sounded the same as I do on my Couesnons, and that the only difference was in terms of response, not really sound.
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-23 13:54
I vote for "time" -- spent on practicing, mouthpiece selection (or refacing if you do that sort of thing), instrument selection (or tuning and regulation if you do that sort of thing), and reed preparation -- as the key to sounding good.
If you take the approach that "time is money", then yes, it's a matter of money.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-11-23 14:56
I don't agree either. Except for the obvious, having at least a decent mouthpiece and instrument and reeds I think perhaps 90% is not based on how much money you spend. Sure barrels, bells, ligatures etc. all help enhance ones tone the primary tone comes from the player. The others are one percent, two percent enhancements. Other wise poor people in poor countries especially would all have poor tones, that's not true. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: leonardA
Date: 2010-11-23 16:14
I agree with Ken. I was amazed at what a great sound my teacher could get out of my plastic Vito with a student mouthpiece.
Leonard
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-11-23 18:21
When I saw the heading of this thread, my initial reaction was to disagree. However, the more I thought about it as I read the rest of the posts, the more I began to feel that there was a kind of "compromise continuum" in play.
Yes, the beginner, however keen, does not need a clarinet worth thousands but, then again, there comes a point below which an instrument may be of such poor quality or in such a poor state of repair that it is counterproductive to play on it.
Later on, the advancing player may achieve a certain improvement by making some adjustments to the set-up. The compromise is about deciding just how much money it takes to make how much difference and whether one is willing or able to spend it!
Equally, if a more experience, harder-working player with a top-of-the range instrument and a more elementary player with a student instrument were to swap clarinets, you would be unlikely suddenly to mistake one player for the other!
Vanessa
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-23 18:59
>>Yes, the beginner, however keen, does not need a clarinet worth thousands but, then again, there comes a point below which an instrument may be of such poor quality or in such a poor state of repair that it is counterproductive to play on it.
>>
True at any stage of the learning process, IMHO. You and some other posters also bring up another important aspect of money and time: both well-spent on maintenance. The greatest clarinet in the world will sound like junk if the pads leak, the register key tube is full of goop, the bridge key cork has fallen off, the A/Ab crossover screw has worked loose and the crow's foot is out of alignment.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-11-23 19:02)
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Author: John Peacock
Date: 2010-11-23 19:19
I wish it *was* just about money. Given how cheap clarinets are relative to oboes, there would then be a lot more great-sounding players around. The problem is time: there are plenty of small changes that you can make to your setup that give better results. But often there are false dawns, and a change that initially seems attractive gets abandoned a few months later, as experience shows you where the deficiencies lie. So all changes need to be lived with for a while and pros and cons balanced. Multiply that by the number of different instrument/barrel/mouthpiece/reed combinations and you are looking at years of effort. There is undoubtedly an optimum combination out there that will help you get the best out of yourself, and probably not that expensive either - the problem is finding it.
Now of course a financial filter helps cut down the waste of time: no point spending ages trying out all the cheapest student instruments with Buffet stock mouthpieces. But beyond a certain point, this is no longer a good guide. Many people will prefer the results they get on a $500 secondhand instrument to what comes out of a Tosca at 10 times the cost. Once you have a setup costing $1000 or so, price ceases to give any useful information, and you have to find other criteria.
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Author: sonicbang
Date: 2010-11-23 19:36
I think most of you missed that I say this is the case OVER A CARTAIN LEVEL OF SKILL. Of course a bad player will always be bad on any equipement.
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Author: Maestro_6
Date: 2010-11-23 19:51
I'm sure many of us can agree that it is more difficult to get a nice tone out of a stock (doorstop) mouthpiece. In this way, buying a well-made mouthpiece is key to any clarinet. However, wasting money to constantly get new equipment is foolish.
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Author: Loliver
Date: 2010-11-24 14:27
You should focus on tone before buying a new instrument.
After buying an E13 several years ago, I then went and bought a mouthpiece at the same shop, a yamaha custom 4c i think, was told 'now you sound like a yamaha'...so the point of me forking over £200 more for an E13 rather than a 650 was completely pointless.
I do agree that many excellent players can get great sounds of seemingly abysmal instruments. My first teacher, who was in the coldstream guards band or something (one of the ones where he HAD to wear a bearskin) didn't play his Tosca in lessons, he always used a Yamaha 250, which he could always make sound great.
The improvement with time is most evident if you are forced to go back to an older instrument through breakages or something, like going back to a 26II from an E13. Surprisingly I much preferred the 26II, which I used in my Grade 8.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-24 19:47
Who needs talent, other than those auditioning for (or continuing to play) symphony gigs? I ask this only half-jokingly. I know literally dozens of clarinetists (not to mention players of other instruments) who have little or no talent but manage to perform in public nevertheless. Some of them 'get by' simply because they have good equipment that permits them to sound at least marginally tolerable.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-11-24 19:59
Good equipment does make you sound better if you're talented in the first place. If you're not a very good player after playing for several years nothing is going to matter very much no matter how much money you spend, unless maybe it's on lessons. ESP
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-11-24 20:10
Or, in a variation of some proverb, "While money may buy you a fine instrument, only hard work, dedication and some talent can make it sing."
--
Ben
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-24 20:38
DS-
Who needs talent, other than those auditioning for (or continuing to play) symphony gigs?
or one could ask...
Who needs a working instrument and mouthpiece, other than those auditioning for (or continuing to play) symphony gigs?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-24 20:49
Well, Signor Skygardener, I know plenty of folks who play in concert bands, jazz bands, theatre pit orchestras, etc. who have little or no talent but do need to have working instruments and adequate mouthpiece to produce a semblance of musical sound.
On other other hand, I can't imagine anyone playing in a (major or regional) symphony orchestras nowadays who is lacking talent.
Not sure where we're headed with this, but I'm sort of sorry I posted on this thread --- I've probably managed to offend or insult a good number of folks, this was not my intention, please accept my apologies if you are one of the Unintentionally Offended.
The Beatles once sang "money can't buy me love" --- I guess it's true that money can't buy talent either, but at the same time, the people who make a living performing music should have (and probably need) the very best equipment they can get. That said, what constitutes "the very best equipment" for any given player is not necessarily the most expensive equipment, by no means!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-24 21:02
Of course the instrument is not the perfomance- I certainly didn't say that, and I don't think that was the OPs intention either.
However, the quality of the instrument/mouthpiece/reed/etc and how they fit or do not fit with the player *does* make a difference.
Growing up with not so much money, getting a good instrument was a challenge, and (as you know from your work in repair) low quality instruments do not hold repair very long. This ultimately makes a difference in the *potential* quality of performance.
A plastic clarinet in good condition can play great, but the repair and maintenance is a financial factor, too. Also, the keys on that plastic instrument were probably not made with AS good metal AS a more expensive instrument. So even if someone repairs it and it plays great today, it probably won't be that good in a few weeks of heavy practice.
Post Edited (2010-11-24 21:05)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-11-24 21:31
Let's look at the bigger picture. If you are an early teen who has to do hard labor to be the bread winner for your family, then you don't have the time to fritter away trying to make music. So the basic premise is true. One must start out with some sort of "privileged" background to even be in the discussion. This does not even account for the cost of "better teachers" and "even better educations (conservatory level I should say)."
And lest we forget the likes of Itzak Perlman, David Bell and the rest who are playing on Stradivari (kinda sorta expensive horns, no?). They might sound ok on a $500 violin but they don't play one now do they?
....................Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-11-24 21:55
Good sounds originate from the player.
The difference between good and bad equipment is that the latter tends to get in the way of what the player is doing while the former tends not to.
The quality of the end result is entirely a function of the player's musicianship, which can never be purchased. In fact it's not even completely amenable to being taught. (although it can certainly be developed)
Post Edited (2010-11-24 21:57)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-11-24 21:55
Not sure if we should pull world-famous violin virtuosi into the discussion, as (a) the top-line violins (and their bows) cost literally orders of magnitude more money than even the most expensive hand-made clarinet; and (b) if my understanding is correct, these folks for the most part did not pay for the purchase of their megadollar instruments, rather those instruments are loaned to them by wealthy benefactors, foundations, museums, etc..
And of course there's the "chicken and the egg" thing --- those people didn't get access to Stradivari violins UNTIL they were virtuosi -- they started with the talent, THEN they got the great instruments after they proved themselves and became famous.
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Author: Tony M
Date: 2010-11-24 22:33
There is clearly a feeling about the place that the quality of the instrument is important but secondary to the learning process and the time spent practicing. The airflow, the embouchure, the instrument in that order, if I remember correctly, is how David Pino ranks things.
At the same time, on whichever instrument I happened to be spending my time, I was always told to learn on the best instrument that I could afford. And I think that remains good advice. It would seem that the critical end of spending money is not above a certain skill level, as the OP put it, but to attain a certain skill level.
At the beginner's level, the input of dollars allows for a significant increase in good sound (if the player practices and learns well) whereas at higher levels the input of dollars allows for more subtle increases in good sound (sorry to quantify these things but it is only for comparison). Refined ears pick the differences because, perhaps, that money (and time and effort) was spent in the first place to find a good set up to practice on.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-11-25 07:37
> above a certain level of skill good sound is ONLY a matter of money
Close...
Above a certain level of money, good sound is ONLY a matter of skill.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-11-25 10:42
Paul- "If you are an early teen who has to do hard labor to be the bread winner for your family, then you don't have the time to fritter away trying to make music. So the basic premise is true. One must start out with some sort of "privileged" background to even be in the discussion.
I agree.
I was not talking about the difference between an R13 and a Tosca. I am talking about the difference between, the school's instrument that gets serviced (barely) once per year and a working Yamaha 250.
I had a student once that needed a clarinet- I told the dad that she can get a reasonable plastic clarinet with a warranty for $350. "Anything cheaper?", he asked. He didn't have the $350, and I could tell that it was not a matter of, "Maybe she will quit in a year. Why waste the money?".
We ended up getting a $200 CSO, and that was the most they could afford- I could tell that he would have loved it to be cheaper. Looking at used clarinets of reasonable quality was more money- and even a cheap clunker taken to be repaired would have ended up at over $200 (NY/NJ area).
This is the level of economy that I am talking about.
Post Edited (2010-11-25 10:54)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-11-25 14:22
Skygardener, I can relate to what you're saying.
Many families participate in affordable rent-to-own programs with local music stores. The instruments may not be top-of-the-line, but they're usually decent student instruments. If a repair is needed, the store will take care of it.
In order to qualify for a rental, parents are usually required to have a credit card that isn't maxed out. Decent credit and a stable source of income are often a must. In this economy, these are difficult standards for some parents to meet.
When I taught in an urban district, I knew of two music stores that advertised extensively. One sold instruments at very reasonable prices, but I strongly suspect that much of their merchandise was stolen property (long story, too long to go into it here). The other offered ultra-cheap rentals, but the quality of their instruments was often poor. To make money, they'd gouge parents on repairs. About 25 years ago, a student (whose parents had rented from this place) came into class with a small screw missing from her clarinet. I knew it was an easy and inexpensive repair, and I told the student to take it back to the store. They told the parents the repair would take a couple weeks, and they charged them about $30!
In this district, I had other experiences that were never discussed in my college music ed. courses. In my second year teaching, I had a student come in with an instrument that was obviously the property of a school district in another state. I was young and idealistic, and I questioned her. She swore it was really her instrument. I notified my supervisor and asked how I should handle the situation. She "knew" how things worked in that city, and she told me not to get involved. "Stay out of it," she said, "and don't get yourself hurt." Over the years, I discovered that many parents didn't understand that school instruments were the property of the school district, not gifts that could be kept if the family moved.
Playing a musical instrument isn't cheap. The cost of equipment, reeds, repairs, lessons, etc. adds up. I've said it before and I'll say it again--in the world of music education, we're becoming a nation of the haves and the have-nots.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-11-25 14:45
Privileged would be a 1 st year student playing a new R-13.
Poor would be having to play a plastic (or wooden for that matter) broken down old hoopty instrument, or not being able to afford to play at all.
A student with a good sound concept can make any of them sound good, but a student without one, can't make any of them sound good.
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-11-25 15:24
>>In my second year teaching, I had a student come in with an instrument that was obviously the property of a school district in another state. I was young and idealistic, and I questioned her. She swore it was really her instrument. I notified my supervisor and asked how I should handle the situation. >>
Clearly you know that specific situation and I don't -- your suspicion may have been right. But it's possible, in general, that a student with a school-marked horn may be telling the truth about owning it legitimately. The reason is that when schools close, buy new equipment or discontinue their music programs, they often consign the old stuff to auction houses.
Odd thing about that -- libraries stamp their books as "released by" when they send them to auction houses or otherwise sell them (and often the librarian will sign the stamp for good measure), but in the forty years I've been cockroaching, and specifically looking for instruments for the last thirty years, I've never seen school musicial equipment marked as "released by" in an auction lot, even when it's clearly a legitimate sale run by the school itself.
I've always thought of the school horns as the absolute bottom-of-the-barrel beaters -- mishandled by the kids and not serviced adequately by the schools. For a picker, it's been worthwhile to take a quick look-see over that merch, on the outside chance that the school might have acquired (from another, older school) or hung onto something decent long enough for it to age into "vintage" value -- maybe it sat around unplayed for ages because it was Albert System keywork or High Pitch, for instance. But most of that discarded school equipment was so beat-to-snot that it would have cost more to repair than it was worth. The only people who bought it were parents who weren't musicians themselves and didn't know any better.
That last paragraph was in past-tense because, unfortunately, this situation has changed. These days, with many schools discontinuing or cutting back on music for budgetary reasons, good, servicible instruments do get into the used market. The majority of the discarded school horns are still beaters and I still don't think it's a good market for the parent or end-user who isn't a musician and can't evaluate the merch, but it's worthwhile for legitimate dealers to check out what's available.
Of course, it's also still worthwhile for legitimate buyers and music teachers to watch out for the stuff that "fell off the truck...."
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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