 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: musica
Date: 2025-03-09 17:52
Just wondering… Do synthetic reeds wear down mouthpiece tips faster than cane ?
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-09 21:35
First: I don't know.
Second: I'd be surprised, but not shocked, if there is a consensus here.
Third: If there is a consensus I have no idea if cane or non-cane reeds are seen as more abrasive.
Fourth: If there is in fact consensus on difference I would be surprised if that difference on wear and tear would be so large as to effect a large change to the financial cost of being a clarinet player that much in terms of need to reface or re-purchase a name brand mouthpiece played out of the box without modification.
I'm curious, but am of the opinion that choice of reed material should be about what does most for a player's ability to express themselves.
Conflict of interest: I normally play cane but have been known to swap in a Legere French cut on bad reed days.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-09 23:32
That's an interesting question. I've been using Legere exclusively for about ten years and (oddly for me) I've been using mostly one mouthpiece during that time. I can't say that I have noticed any wear at all. There is some dulling of the playing surface of the rails but I wouldn't call that wear per se. I do recall early on in my playing days I had used a Hite pretty consistently and thought enough of the "rounding" of the rails after a year or so to ask Hite to address this with a refacing. Now my sensibilities have changed over the years but I'd say that if I thought enough to ask about the facing then there must have been some appreciable wear. It would make sense that a more irregular surface that you get from a piece of wood should be more "abrasive." But there is NOTHING scientific or really that accurate when memory is the main component.
................Paul Aviles
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2025-03-10 19:36
when i first started playing bass clarinet-i bought a used vandy b46 mpc that played great. i used exclusively. bari synthetic plastic reeds for many years on it and the facing is completly shot on it now. the mpc will not even make a sound no matter what reed i use. i feel the bari plastic reed greatly accelerated the wear on the facing as this rapid wear has never happened on any mpc i played for decades even using cane. bear in mind Bari reeds are made from a much harder plastic than any other synthetic reeds .
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-10 23:54
super20dan wrote:
> when i first started playing bass clarinet-i bought a used
> vandy b46 mpc that played great. i used exclusively. bari
> synthetic plastic reeds for many years on it and the facing is
> completly shot on it now. the mpc will not even make a sound no
> matter what reed i use. i feel the bari plastic reed greatly
> accelerated the wear on the facing as this rapid wear has never
> happened on any mpc i played for decades even using cane. bear
> in mind Bari reeds are made from a much harder plastic than any
> other synthetic reeds .
In light of your story, would you have changed your choice to use Bari reeds here?
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-11 09:00
I don't think the Legeres wear the tip any faster than a cane reed, but two mouthpieces I've used with Legeres have gone "longer" after prolonged Legere use. As someone who has done a lot of mouthpiece refacing over the years, and has regularly checked measurements on the mouthpieces I use myself, I've never noticed this from cane use- but from Legere use.
One mouthpiece (Vandoren) was used with Legere exclusively for 2 years, measured using the Brand scale it went from a 38 to well over 42 (21mm). Another mouthpiece (Lomax- Zinner blank) used with Legere went from 36 to 40 (20mm) length in about the same length of time.
Both mouthpieces were being played between 4 and 6 hours a day most days of the week, with Legere exclusively. Other measurements stayed more or less the same.
Have never noted this with cane, but this hardly a scientific sample/test etc. Make of it what you will, but as I said above, I routinely measure my mouthpieces so this IS something I can verify with measurements rather than just "observation/impression"
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2025-03-11 09:52
An interesting thought. I've used Legeres quite a bit, but not any of the other synthetic reeds, so I can only relate to Legere. Personally I haven't noticed any changes in the mouthpiece, but looking at Donald's post, I can see that over time the vibration of the reed against the mouthpiece rails might be compared with a forging or hammering process on a much smaller scale.
Tony F.
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2025-03-11 14:18
Surely, if there is additional wear from synthetics, it would first show as rail tilt, rather than a lengthening of the lay? The changes experienced by Donald seem huge to me.
Donald - presumably the mouthpieces with lengthening lays also displayed some rail tilt?
On the D'Addario website, I notice they say mouthpieces last 2 or 3 years. Of course, commercial, that suits them, but it is also my experience that rail tilt has taken full hold on my EV10s. Though I'd never consider measuring lay length it's something I'll look at from now on.
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Author: super20dan
Date: 2025-03-11 15:25
for me the Bari synth reeds work so well on bass clarinet that i do continue to use them -just not on my prized vintage mpcs. i use brilhart bass mpcs which are easy to replace if needed. no reed gives more power and cut than the Bari does and for playing jazz -its tops for me
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-03-12 16:16
Since the use of synthetic reeds is increasing one can picture the need for thousands of new mouthpieces as more and more facings are worn flat. Maybe this will open the door for some company – maybe Légère – to develop and market high quality metal clarinet mouthpieces. (I'm only half joking!)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-12 18:05
no
Legere reeds do NOT wear down mouthpieces
ten years; same mouthpiece (and I have two copies of the same mouthpiece to prove it); no appreciable wear
......but if you prefer.........you may panic
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-12 22:13
Because some of you clearly can't read...
"but this hardly a scientific sample/test etc. Make of it what you will, but as I said above, I routinely measure my mouthpieces so this IS something I can verify with measurements rather than just "observation/impression"
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-12 23:41
Ok......I'll say it,
It just sounds like something is wrong with the measurements or something else is going on. If you had a shift in length to that degree, what does the OPENING dimension look like (given this is where the most MOVEMENT is occurring).
I'd unscientifically say that if you have length change like that happening it would be more likely the result of a chemical reaction (an erosion of the material). OR is the act of using those metal feelers all the time actually acting more like sand paper? Just a thought.
I'd check with Clark Fobes on this one.
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: SecondTry
Date: 2025-03-13 01:03
All moving parts are subject to wear and tear.
This unalienable law of physics I appreciate.
I also understand how a reed, cane or synthetic, sits on a mouthpiece until some point as the tip is approached where a gap between it and the mouthpiece's rails begins to form, maximizing its distance at the mouthpiece's tip and forming the tip opening distance.
And I certainly get how, to make sound, air pressure causes that reed to move, vibrate in fact.
With these physics underpinnings in place, where is the abrasion happening, irrespective of whether its caused by a cane or synthetic reed? Is it, for example, most pronounced near the point of departure between the reed and mouthpiece but present anywhere the reed touches the mouthpiece?
TIA
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-13 02:37
Yes I provided evidence that you didn't like so it MUST be that my measurements are wrong. Despite that fact that I'm making these measurements on a regular basis, and let take a guess, you don't even own the tools for doing this... just a guess.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-13 02:48
SecondTry wrote:
> With these physics underpinnings in place, where is the
> abrasion happening, irrespective of whether its caused by a
> cane or synthetic reed? Is it, for example, most pronounced
> near the point of departure between the reed and mouthpiece but
> present anywhere the reed touches the mouthpiece?
>
I would only say that intuitively the wear should be where the moving reed and mouthpiece come into contact most - the point of departure. I can easily visualize the reed vibrating against the end point of the curve gradually eroding it back.
FWIW, I was told several years ago by another member of the Philadelphia Orchestra woodwind section that Morales had gone back to cane for this very reason - mouthpiece facing wear.
Karl
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Author: kdk
Date: 2025-03-13 03:00
Paul Aviles wrote:
> no
>
>
>
> Legere reeds do NOT wear down mouthpieces
>
>
>
> ten years; same mouthpiece (and I have two copies of the same
> mouthpiece to prove it); no appreciable wear
>
>
It may depend on how you define "appreciable." And is one of the copies of the mouthpiece an unused control specimen? And have you accounted for unavoidable small sample differences between two (or more) of the same brand/model so that it's unlikely that the two mouthpieces played identically even when new, much less now when at least one of them has been used for 10 years. Comparing them (I assume that you're suggesting that the old one shows no deterioration because it still plays the same as the other one) is no less subjective than guessing at whether a measurement has changed.
Lastly, "ten years; same mouthpiece" ignores any accommodation you may have made to any changes, even very small ones, that have occurred gradually over so many years.
Karl
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-13 03:44
The mouthpieces I refer to were both quite playable, note that I never announced it was a "problem" just that it happened (for whatever reason, I never actually stated the reeds caused it).
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-13 05:06
But then have you been required to play on stronger reeds?
.............Paul Aviles
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Author: donald
Date: 2025-03-13 09:28
Karl- yes, Guy Legere passed this anecdote on to me in 2017, I can't imagine he has any motive to make it up. Corrado told at least one person that's why he uses Crystal mouthpieces (though I only have 2nd hand info on that, can't really verify he actually said it).
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Author: kilo
Date: 2025-03-13 15:03
Quote:
Legere reeds do NOT wear down mouthpieces
Well that's pretty definitive and I'm not going to argue with you. But we know that facings do wear down over time, something which was known to occur before the use of synthetic reeds. I've usually seen this attributed to the prolonged effect of the vibrating reed (cane, in this case), but I've also heard it explained by the use of silk swabs, and I've even read that it was due to the friction of pressurized warm moist air.
Practicing an hour a day, my mouthpiece may never show any wear but the mouthpiece facings of clarinet majors and professional players undergo much more intensive use. I'd like to see a mechanical device made to simulate the action of a vibrating reed on a facing and measure the abrasive effect of polypropylene and cane on hard rubber over many cycles of use under laboratory conditions.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2025-03-13 15:15
Sorry......let me make a correction.
What I should have said is that at worst, there is no more appreciable wear with Legere. I personally have not experienced any deleterious affect from using Legere over an extended time.
I continue to ponder the idea of "wear" at the point where the reed and mouthpiece come together...... a point with the LEAST amount (if any) of reed movement. Now, if the "wear" described is happening because the vibration of the body of the reed is causing "wear" to the facing, that would make the length of the lay SHORTER. I still assert there is some other action happening to cause the lay to become LONGER.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: JTJC
Date: 2025-03-14 14:44
More than one mouthpiece maker has indicated that after about two years of professional use, a mouthpiece would need the lay touched up. I believe the prime wear is rail tilt. So not at the extreme end of the lay, but forward of that (towards tip), but where the reed flexes around the curve of the lay. That is usually visible by looking 'down' the lay. In some cases it can been seen as shiny spots on the inner edges of both rails. If a straight edge is placed across the lay at that point, the angle of the tilt of the rails inwards towards the slot can be seen.
I think it would be extraordinary, regardless of the material of the reed, if an ebonite mouthpiece didn't show any wear like that after a number of years of fair use. Of course, if you measure the lay at the point of tilt, the reading would be the outer, unworn or less worn edge. At the extreme, as the wear increases across the rails, rail tilt will gradually affect the outer edge as well.
I suppose for most of us, the equipment we use, feeler gauges and glass guage, have their limits in terms of accuracy. So no apparent change in dimensions may just mean any change is beyond our capability to accurately identify.
Even if there has been change to a mouthpiece due to wear, what level becomes unacceptable in playing terms? I doubt many of us notice as we unconciously adapt to it. Wasn't it the mouthpiece maker Matson that said a difference 0.04mm didn't matter, as results effectively the same. Anyway, any concern about wear is the perfect reason to buy another mouthpiece.
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