 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-05-05 02:10
As I was taught by a world famous musician, when you tongue, your throat should not jump. I'm still having issues with my embouchure. My lesson teacher says it looks pretty good, but I'm still doing very poor quality playing in class. I start playing incredibly flat, and such. When I go from a high note to a lower note, then to the same high note again, the pitch is almost an entire note flatter.
I have attached a picture of my embouchure so that, in a slight chance, someone can tell me what may be wrong. (This is in the next or 3rd post. Scroll down to find it.)
and can someone tell me what's happening when I tongue? I try a light tongue, but my throat just ends up jumping a bit.
I'm about ready to give up clarinet. I don't want to though, but I can't play it right, and the only time that I sound the best is when I press my bottom teeth against my bottom lip. I want to actually do this right. But I'm not the best at fixing things as precise as this myself.
please help?
Post Edited (2010-05-05 02:23)
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-05-05 02:20
Attachment: CIMG0030.jpg (1004k)
Picture and what not. I'm sorry about the bad quality. For a smart phone that costs almost $1,000, it doesn't take very good pictures.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2010-05-05 02:47
I think your issues are probably related more to what might be going on inside your mouth rather than _just_ the embouchure.
IMO, the back of your tongue is probably too low. Try using a tongue position like when you say "EEEE." "TEEEE" works for tonguing. "Tah" doesn't usually work for clarinet (but can sometimes). Give it a shot and see if it works for you!
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-05-05 06:15
If I am seeing it clearly ("IF"!!), it looks likeyou are bunching up your lower lip. You have a lot of meat between your lower teeth and the reed, right?? More than 1/4 inch, it seems.
Don't worry about your lower lip. Concentrate on tightening the corners of your mouth and "smiling" a little- ie. pull them away from each other a little.
The real goal is that you make your lower lip thinner. Why???
Having a lot of lip between the teeth and the reed means that your jaw is open too much and your tongue is too far "down". Also, the softness of you lower lip cannot support the reed enough to create any stability. This is why your high notes are flat.
Think of it like when you take a picture... "Cheeeeese"!
Also, practice long tones. If you can get the low notes to sound solid and "hard" or "square", the rest will start to fall into place. A "soft, smooth, pillow-ish" sound in the low notes will cause flatness in the highs.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-05 07:23
Tonguing:
Blow a note and stop the reed with your tongue. Keep blowing (not much air flows!). THIS is your starting point.
Now, make a short note by removing the tongue and putting it back again. Repeat several times. That's all there is to it!...
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-05-05 14:00
You may have a frog in your throat.....but,seriously, in essence you have no embouchure. You need to tighten your "embouchure muscles"....and it looks like you have too much mp in your mouth.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-05-05 15:27
I second the suggesttions from Katrina. The embouchure is your "platform" but quite honestly the real issue is with air stream and proper tonguing.
As Bassie says, you are starting the note by WITHDRAWING your tongue from the reed NOT striking the reed. Of course with speed the line becomes blurred. So you must train this feelling very slowly to get it right. Your tongue (a muscle itself) will get it right eventually due to "muscle memory."
I'll just throw this out there for the heck of it. Robert Marcellus used to draw the analogy between learning how to tongue properly and potty training. They both require methodic, patient, repetitive work.
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-05-05 15:43
moolatte wrote:
Quote:
and the only time that I sound the best is when I press my bottom teeth against my bottom lip.
That's probably because that's more or less what you're "supposed" to do. In other words, stretching the bottom lip OVER your bottom teeth is the normal thing to do in a clarinet embouchure. That's one reason why so many players play with some kind of lip guard over their bottom teeth (I don't, but a lot of folks do).
From your picture, it looks your bottom lip is sticking out, almost pouting. It really ought to be "pulled in" instead, over your bottom teeth. If, as your post suggests, it will not only look more correct but you know it will sound better that way, then that's clearly what you need to do. (And perhaps other things, too, as Katrina suggested--but the bottom lip seems like an obvious place to start.)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2010-05-05 18:57
You are almost frowning when playing - raise your corners just a bit. Don't "smile", but you are too much in the other direction.
Then there is the issue of what's going on inside your mouth.
What pitch do you get with just the mouthpiece/ligature/reed? Is your tongue falling into the "back of the throat"?
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-05-05 20:17
>> the only time that I sound the best is when I press my bottom teeth against my bottom lip
Yes, well spotted mrn. Lips are usually held tight against teeth, top and bottom. This can really dig in until you get the hang of the exact right place to do it. But that's embouchure for you.
The 'right' amount of mouthpiece will give the cleanest tone. Experiment with it. It'll be a while before you can hit the sweet spot every time right away.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-05-06 13:25
The trouble is that every one of the suggestions from the other posters to this thread could be the solution or part of the solution to your problem. There's nothing wrong with any of the help that's been offered. And if you start to try to apply each of them one at a time you may hit on the magic bullet or not, but more than likely, you need to change some combination of habits (including perhaps others that no one here has suggested yet, for instance reed strength or quality, which might require other changes as well) and no one change alone may produce the result you really want so badly to hear. The outcome will be confusion and further frustration for you.
That's why the best source of help for technical/mechanical problems is always an experienced teacher (I know you're currently with one - keep reading) listening to you first hand, not reading a description of the problem. There are too many variables involved, some of which can't easily be put into words. You are studying right now with a teacher. Ideally, your teacher should be in the best position to diagnose and suggest solutions for the problem you're having. If all he/she can say (has said) is that "it looks pretty good," then this teacher may not be the best equipped to deal with this kind of basic technical problem. He or she may be excellent working with students at a high musical level. Some teachers, particularly at the college/university level are much stronger musical coaches than technical diagnosticians. They are experienced in dealing with more subtle mechanical problems as they impact on the musicality of a student's playing, but your problem, from your description, doesn't sound subtle and is much more a problem of basic tone production and articulation technique.
I don't remember without going back through your posts to earlier threads if you are studying at a college or university where there is a faculty clarinet teacher or if you are studying independently. If your teacher doesn't seem to know what to suggest, there may be teachers in your area who would be better at dealing with these problems. You can find such teachers by asking people you trust - people with whom you've studied before, other clarinetists who have grown up and studied in your area, teachers you may know of other instruments who may know the nearby clarinet teachers' reputations for strengths and weaknesses (every teacher has some of each), etc... If you're in a school situation where you must study with your current teacher, taking a few lessons with someone else on the side to focus on your particular problem might be very worthwhile. If you're studying independently, then a change of teachers may be the best move.
Karl
Post Edited (2010-05-06 16:29)
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Author: Old Geezer
Date: 2010-05-08 16:19
If you can afford a $1,000 cell phone, perhaps you can afford a change of teachers or a few lessons on the side with one in addition to your regular teacher.
You'll get a lot of interesting and sometimes useful ideas here but only an experienced teacher sitting at your side can really do the trick or not.
Don't give it up...stick with it, someday when these those ravishing clarinet tones pour out you'll be thrilled you did!
If you don't care to experiment with teachers; get a copy of Larry Guy's Embouchere Training for Clarinetists...Larry knows....
Clarinet Redux
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-05-09 03:54
I second Old Geezer's recommendation of the Larry Guy book. Also, Tom Ridenour's clarinet pedagogy book has some stuff on embouchure I've found useful as well.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-05-09 05:26
Attachment: CIMG0029.jpg (1000k)
Updated picture. I tried doing what mrn said to do. I'm slightly biting, but it doesn't hurt, like how much I used to bite. My teeth do leave an imprint that stings a little. Am I overdoing it?
I'm trying to find the ideal location. Some, I get an almost-frown embouchure. Others, it's a straight-across embouchure. And more commonly, the slightly-smiling embouchure.
In this picture, I believe I'm getting the slightly-smiling embouchure. I can't tell you right now if it works correctly, cause... well... It's midnight, and everyone in my house is asleep and will get pissed if I play anything on my clarinet. But from practicing earlier, I love the sound I get with at least one of them. The frowning embouchure is not on-purpose, but rather, just my bottom teeth probably in the wrong place. I noticed that with it the high notes sort of puff out. The straight embouchure gives the best notes in the high register, but sometimes puff out or don't speak. The most noticeable one that has trouble speaking is high F#. I'm not sure if it's just me forgetting to doing that "attempted-smile to tighten the corners" thing after a while.
The almost-smiling embouchure, I'm not sure. I'll have to give a report after practicing tomorrow.
What do you guys think?
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-05-09 11:37
This is what i tell my students...
-Think of the lips being held AGAINST the teeth (rather than "pulled over them"). Think of "ffffffff" as in fire rather than "wwwwwww" as in wool (of course, this does also depend on your pronunciation).
- If your lips are held against the teeth (so that no pockets of air are between your lips and your teeth there should still be lip between the reed and your teeth, without you having to deliberately think of pulling your lip over your bottom teeth, just because the clarinet will (should?) be entering your mouth at an angle.
Of course every person is different, so each student gets a slightly different version depending on their needs, but this rather simple way of describing the embouchure has been quite successful.
dn
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-05-09 12:41
This picture is much better. I think you are heading in the right direction.
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