 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-05-03 21:09
Hi guys,
I have maybe a very silly question. Why do we have mouthpieces and reeds with curved tips while oboes and bassoons use straight edged reeds? Is there a reason? Has there ever been a straight mouthpiece? I've never seen one. Maybe it would sound great. Just wondering!
Sacha
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Author: jacoblikesmusic
Date: 2010-05-03 22:45
Well I'm not sure where your going with this curved tip thing but oboes and bassoons are double reed instruments.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2010-05-03 22:48
To make a flat tipped mouthpiece you would have to completely redesign how the windway of a mouthpiece is formed. The tip is curved because the baffle is a multiple curved shape, with curves running both lengthwise and "width-wise".
The baffle shape creates much of the sound of the clarinet. I can't imagine what a mouthpiece with a flat baffle would sound like, but I would guess judging from the fact that deep baffle mouthpieces often have a richer tone quality, that it would be pretty awful.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Buffet Clarinets
Wold Class, Hand Crafted Mouthpieces
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Author: William
Date: 2010-05-04 00:53
"I can't imagine what a mouthpiece with a flat baffle would sound like"
Ever go duck hunting???
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-04 01:56
I'm not so sure I agree with Walter on this --- I believe we'd have to build such a mouthpiece and see. From my experience with saxophone mouthpiece modification I believe that the shape (concavity, if you will) of the baffle per se, is less important that the volume of air between it and the reed, going from the tip backwards toward the instrument end. In other words, the air volume between baffle and reed, as a function of length, may be the controlling parameter, more so than whatever baffle shape created that volume. (Think of a cross-sectional slice of the mouthpiece anywhere along its length, and measure the surface area of the non-material part of the slice.)
Anybody want to mold a blank and let a few of us try to put a facing on it? I'm game.........
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-05-04 02:45
>>>Ever go duck hunting???
I guess that would be one way to get back to the "beginner" stage we all so fondly remember! ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Jeff
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-05-04 03:56
Just thinking in practical terms, square-edged reeds would be far more fragile than the current design. That's not a problem in double reeds for an obvious reason.
I suspect that "duck hunting" pretty accurately describes the sound such a reed would create.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: concertmaster3
Date: 2010-05-04 07:04
The back of our tips (double reeds) are still curved usually, depending from reed maker to reed maker, even though the end of the tip is straightish... I do tend to cut the corners on my reeds a little so there is a slight / \ on either side of the actual tip of the reed. But, most American reed makers do have a curved area in the reed, just not at the very tip. We do need to make sure that the tip edges vibrate together, I feel that curving them on double reeds would be more of a challenge.
And besides, double reed crows sound like ducks. :-D
Ron Ford
Woodwind Specialist
Performer/Teacher/Arranger
http://www.RonFordMusic.com
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-05-04 14:00
I guess I should chime in. I wrote a small article on this very thing about 25 years ago for The Clarinet. I didn't really have much to offer at the time other than speculation. If one just chops off our traditional mouthpiece at the tip to make it straight then as Walter says you must add material in the center or you will have a sudden dip right after the center of the tip rail. The result would be a flat approach to the tip rail but it could be graduated. Certainly it would make reed trimming easier but I'm not sure of the other results. I'll try mangling yet another mouthpiece with this "straight" approach and see what happens. It probably will be no better than my "double reed" clarinet mouthpiece. I opened up the bite area where the teeth go and put a facing up there. It isn't the greatest sound you want to hear.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-05-04 19:11
An untrimmed but otherwise finished reed will play reasonably well, but the sharp corners, unsupported by the mouthpiece, tend to whistle. In fact, a finished reed with a sharp corner will whistle, at least for me.
I see no reason in principle why a mouthpiece couldn't be made straight across the tip. It should also be possible to make the baffle flat rather than concave, adjusting it as a flat curve. This would be easier to make than the complex shape of the current design.
Interior volume is what counts, not shape, so there should be no problem in a transition from a flat baffle to a round bore. In fact, there have been clarinet barrels with a square bore, and, I think, sax mouthpieces with a square throat.
It would also be easier to make and adjust a reed that had a straight-across shape.
However, the bottom teeth are in a bow shape, so it would be difficult to apply even pressure across a flat tip, and the corners would be completely covered and thus muffled by the corners of the mouth.
I'm sure a square tip has been tried, at least in the early history of the clarinet. I'll ask on the Early Clarinet board.
Ken Shaw
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-05-06 12:47
Ken Shaw wrote:
> However, the bottom teeth are in a bow shape, so it would be
> difficult to apply even pressure across a flat tip, and the
> corners would be completely covered and thus muffled by the
> corners of the mouth.
>
Ken, I don't think I understand what you mean by this. The point where the bottom teeth (covered by the lip) contact - exert pressure against - the reed is farther down the reed's surface. Wouldn't the reed's shape a quarter of an inch or so down its length be more or less the same as conventional (curved) reeds?
This makes me wonder more generally, though, about how the overall profile of a straight-tipped reed would need to differ, if it would, from conventional reeds on curved-tipped mouthpieces. Would the tapers toward the sides and from tip to butt need to be very different, or would small tweaks in the profile be enough?
Karl
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-06 14:26
We can speculate all day long. I will try to make such a mouthpiece out of a junk 'blank', modify a few reeds to have a straight-across tip shape, and report back to everyone before you start turning blue awaiting the answer to this far-reaching question which has confounded the human race ever since the invention of the clarinet by Mr. Acker Bilk in 1317 B.C.
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Author: Arnoldstang
Date: 2010-05-06 15:02
The general concept of reed closure on double reeds is that they should close from the sides first and the center last. If this doesn't occur then the reed sounds rather blatty. Perhaps there is some relationship to the subject at hand. Just throwing it out.
Freelance woodwind performer
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-05-06 18:37
>>I'm sure a square tip has been tried, at least in the early history of the clarinet.>>
It was tried more recently than that. A few years ago, I bought a used clarinet with a plastic mouthpiece that looked as if had been dropped. A little chunk had broken off of one corner, leaving an air-gap between facing and reed at that corner.
I marked straight across with a white paint-marker, then used a bandsaw to cut off the damaged end. The result was that, on the intact side of the mouthpiece, I needed to remove a total of about 1/8". Out of curiosity, instead of bevelling down the outer corners for a curved tip, I left the mouthpiece cut straight across and simply sanded down the inner surfaces of the edges to make them approximately as thin as the edges of a good mouthpiece at its center. I flattened and sanded a reed tip to match the flat tip of the mouthpiece.
This mouthpiece I mutilated was a Goldentone, so it had already been factory-finished, it would not have been a good mouthpiece to begin with, and re-facing it couldn't give me the same result as if I'd started with a blank. Maybe that's why it turned out unusable. Or maybe it turned out unusable because I didn't really have a clue what I was doing. I got squeaks galore -- could not produce a predictible note.
Next, I tried curving the edges down into something that looked like a more standard shape, though it was now shorter than it should've been for good intonation and had a different contour on the inside. Tried it out with a normal reed. Oops. Oh, well. Then I threw away the evidence!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
Post Edited (2010-05-06 18:40)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-07 00:41
It's interesting you mention straight tip reeds because when you make a reed the tip is straight until you clip it curved. When I first learned to make my reeds I would play them straight across until I broke them in, I still do that for a few days. I would even play them in the orchestra that way at youth concerts or when I had an unimportant part. The funny thing was that sometimes after I clipped it to shape my MP it didn't always play as well as it did when it was straight but there was something about looking at a straight tip that made me always clip them no matter how good they already played. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: justme
Date: 2010-05-07 01:10
David Spiegelthal said: " the answer to this far-reaching question which has confounded the human race ever since the invention of the clarinet by Mr. Acker Bilk in 1317 B.C."
Haha! Fantastic! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
Justme
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-05-07 09:42
Thanks for all of your comments. I'm glad to see people thinking about this, and not just thinking that I'm maybe a complete idiot for asking.
I actually asked for a specific reason. With my wind quintet, I have been finding it difficult to please the double reed players in terms of articulation and beginnings of notes. I always am too soft for them, and tend to have to do things that are somewhat unnatural for me (for instance, beginning notes with a 'ping'. . .to use the technical term)
I know maybe no clarinet wants to sound like an oboe, but maybe the shape of the reed/mouthpiece could effect the attacks so matching the sound might be less work.
I actually don't know if the shape would have anything like this effect, or just end up with a less good sounding clarinet, with the same tendencies.
Anyway, I'm very interested in any results that you come up with actually trying to make a flat tipped mp.
And Ed, that's very interesting that sometimes your flat reeds would play better. Why do you play them flat? Do they actually work with the shape of your MP?
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-05-07 13:40
Based on my experience, I wonder whether the only way to make a *good* non-curved tip would be to start making the mouthpiece from scratch. The mouthpiece I messed around with was a finished item, made from the start with the intention that the tip would be curved. I think the manufacturer contoured the interior of the mouthpiece accordingly. When I flattened it out, I monkeyed with that original interior curve.
Since I'm not a mouthpiece maker and never had any training in refacing mouthpieces, I think my amateur efforts were probably doomed anyway. Learning to reface mouthpieces is a whole different deal than learning to change pads, corks and springs. But it would be interesting to hear the results from someone better qualified than I.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-05-07 13:56
Sacha,
From my years of refacing mouthpieces I tend to believe that a mouthpiece's articulation qualities are more determined by the nature of the 'break' (transition) from the flat table to the curved facing, than by the tip design. But still, I plan to mess around with a few mouthpieces this weekend and see if I can come up with anything playable with a squared-off tip.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2010-05-07 14:50
Or....the more basic question: Why don't clarinets use double reeds with no mouthpiece at all? As I recall double reeds were used on various instruments long before the chalmeau or clarinet were invented. In fact I'm thinking that early on double reeds were used on "clarinets" for a while. If all this is so then why were mouthpieces ever invented in the first place? I am inclined to think that the shape of the mouth has something to do with the whole subject.
Bob Draznik
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Author: William
Date: 2010-05-08 15:40
"I know maybe no clarinet wants to sound like an oboe"
LOL
BTW--I do find it easier to produce a ping-like effect with my Forestone reeds--but use it sparingly.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2010-05-08 17:22
Bob -
I think the proto-clarinet came about because, except for a flute, it's the simplest instrument to make reed out of a reed. You cut a piece just above a joint, so that it was blocked off at the top by the membrane between the joints. Then you cut a diagonal sliver just below the joint until you reached the hollow inside, drilled finger holes, stuck the end in your mouth and blew.
It's a much more complicated process cutting two thin slivers, tying them together to make a double reed and finding an airtight way to jam it into a cane tube.
Also, since it acts as a closed pipe, the proto-clarinet can be quite a bit shorter for a given pitch.
However, if you messed up carving the reed, or it broke, you had to make a whole new instrument.
Ken Shaw
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-05-08 17:31
We could also try making a really little mouthpiece and a single reed for an oboe!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-05-09 14:53
Srattle, I must not have been clear, I don't actually play with my reeds flat, or straight across the tip. What I said was when I make a reed, I use both commercial as well as hand made reeds, I break them in for a few days before I clip the tip to shape it curved and that sometimes I would even play them in the orchestra when I didn't have something important to play but I certainly don't do that on a regular basis, and very rarely. After breaking a new hand made reed for a few days I will clip it so the tip is curved. Most reeds play best when shaped to the curve of the MP but there are some exceptions. I am not advocating using straight tip reeds. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-05-11 03:34)
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