 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-04-19 07:21
A couple people on here recommended against getting an intermediate wood horn if you already have a good (!) plastic one. The assumption, of course, is that intermediates are not far enough above the better student models for it to be worth the upgrade. I can kind of understand why this might be true - that is, if it's actually true. Intermediates are typically less than twice the price of good student models. And a decent chunk of that price disparity may only be due to the fact that it's made out of wood, as opposed to the quality of construction. So when all is said in done the intermediate instead becomes somewhat of a status symbol, with only modest improvements in performance.
So let's compare a good new student model to an average new intermediate model. How much better is the intonation, timbre and responsiveness? And how does wood compare with performance on the picky throat and altissimo registers?
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-04-19 15:46
I'm almost convinced that there is enough overlap in "quality" between beginner, intermediate and pro level clarinets that you can't be sure that ONE you try out will be distinguishable from your reference instrument.
I've owned 3 really, really terrible Buffet R13s --and one quite good one. In this case, the 3 bad ones had insufferable intonation problems, but I could make them all sound sweet.
In all 4 Buffets, the barrel made a huge difference.
When it comes down to choosing a clarinet, you must test your candidates; and, I think, have a trusted pro give them a play, too. Do that before buying!
Bob Phillips
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-19 15:48
I fear the question is a non-starter and will answer in a different way.
For me the only reason not to buy a professional line horn (around three thousand dollars) is that you cannot afford it.
Then the issue becomes what can you afford, and what amongst that price range is the best option.
There are very good student horns (and the material of the body itself DOES NOT determine how it plays, it is how it is CUT and finished) and there are (unfortunately) professional line horns that are not all that great.
So I don't think it even possible to pick out an intermediate intermediate horn to do any comparison.
I was just on the Mike Vaccaro website and I will paraphrase his reasoning for only offering a professional model mouthpiece, "If it is not good enough for a professional to play, how can it be any advantage to a beginner?" end paraphrase
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2010-04-19 17:41
There is of course a significant psychological element to grenadilla. I remember clearly the look, feel and smell of my E11, and how I just wanted to play it ALL the time.
Maybe it sounds the same to the audience, but it sure don't sound the same to the player.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-19 17:42
Not everybody *needs* a pro-grade horn, nor can everyone afford one. Sure, it's nice to have what many consider to be the best, but if you are simply doing the music for the enjoyment, is it worth the extra $1500 or so to belly up to Buffet/Selmer/Leblanc/Yamaha, etc. bar and fork over what can be a substantial portion of one's annual earnings for what might simply be a hobby?
This may sound like blasphemy, but my wife might have a point in reminding me that I'm not making money by playing clarinet, so I shouldn't be spending all that much on new instruments. Given that reasoning, many folks can be just as well served by "step-up" instruments as they can by top of the line professional instruments.
Jeff
Edited (alas) for typos. I'm glad I can play better than I can type!!!!
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-04-19 17:44)
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Author: SteveG_CT
Date: 2010-04-19 22:46
In my experience intermediate instruments CAN be a significant upgrade over a student model but this is something that really needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis. I started out on what most would consider to be a pretty good student horn (a Yamaha model 20) and a few years later upgraded to what many would consider to be a lower-end intermediate instrument (a Normandy 10). For me the difference was night and day.
My Yamaha had nightmarish intonation problems and was not at all fun to play especially in the upper registers. Conversely, the Normandy was very easy to play in tune and the upper registers became something to be enjoyed rather than feared.
I suspect that the huge difference I perceived is not typical as my Yamaha was clearly a dog and my Normandy seems to be much nicer than the average Normandy (I think it's as nice as some of the pro instruments I've played).
I wouldn't immediately eliminate intermediate instruments from consideration. The only way to determine if an instrument will be a big upgrade is to go and play them.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2010-04-20 01:01
I notice a big difference between the student and intermediate horns, I find that once a students reaches a certain level in their playing, a student-grade horn won't do, especially in developing student's airflow and dynamic range. I had two or three students over the past few years who needed to upgrade their horns (they were playing at an upper intermediate level) but the parents wouldn't spring for it, and it wasn't that the student's didn't have they money, it depends on priorities. But the ones who did upgrade their horns when I suggested they should are generally doing quite well to very well.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-20 08:43
Just my two cents: a good student horn can "differ" only in mind from a bad intermediate model. And if you use an ebonite or wodden horn, could be a decision based on other items than only the look & feel ;-) If you wanna play it outside, the wodden model is the worser against a plastic/rubber horn.
But if you wanna upgrade from a plastic beginner's horn (like a better CSO), than an intermediate model should bring more stability in the keywork, a slighly better intonation a.s.o. The choice between different brands and makes should be done by checking the manufacturing quality (wood quality, plating, bearing concept...) and by testing the fitting to your special demands. Some very expensive horns sound sad in my mouth, and some cheaper do like nightingales ;-)
Best recommendation is test and test and test - and then decide! The price is only one factor, and the naming (as student/intermediate/professional) is only free choice of the manufacturer. There's no common standard. One example: an intermediate called horn from Buffett will cost appr. 1200,-EUR. The same price you'll get an Amati professional called horn with full Boehm keywork and low Eb... Sometimes only the brand name makes the difference in the pricing **ggg**
kindly
Roman
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-04-20 15:58
I recall the delight that came with my first pro-level clarinet. It was so FAST. I was a freshman in college when that (terribly out of tune) Buffet arrived, and Immediately I was able to play familiar passages much faster. My guess after all these years: the mechanism and pad sealing --making a move to put down more pads sealed them quicker.
On the "issue" of cost. If you are going to play your new clarinet for quite a while, consider the hourly cost of the upgrade. Say you would prefer the horn that costs an extra $1500, and you play 10 hours a week. That better instrument costs you less than $3/hour in the first year. If you keep it for 20-years, the hourly cost difference is only 14-cents/hour.
And, if you play 20-hours a week, for 20 years, the horn is costing you about 7-cents an hour.
Now, if you are using cane reeds at $3 each and get 10-hours out of one, then that pro horn is costing you about 3x as much as your reed bill.
Further, if you tire of that pro horn, its resale value will probably be within $1500 of its purchase price.
Going cheap is false economy --if you love the way the better clarinet plays for you.
Bob Phillips
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Author: Nessie1
Date: 2010-04-20 16:34
I second most of what has been said here - if you are thinking in terms of a "for ever" clarinet that you will really enjoy it is worth trying in lot in whatever stores you can get to and anything that comes up secondhand too. As is often said when people are talking about instruments, you cannot generalise by model, each individual instrument will vary from the next. Depending on what is available in whatever store you go to you may like a particular intermediate clarinet better than some of the top-of-the-range ones on the day you go. Most expensive may not always be the best either.
As Bob has implied in his post, if playing is something that you will do quite a lot, over the years the investment will work out quite modestly per hour of playing, assuming you can find the money in the first place. Like most other expenses beyond food, housing etc. it is of course partly a question of choice - would you rather have a higher up the range clarinet or a newer car/ fancier holiday/set of golf clubs (or whatever else your other hobbies may be)?
Vanessa.
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-22 07:33
@Bob: But your calculation is based on the philosophy, that a pro horn is better than an intermediate in every case. My experience shows, that this "fact" can't hardened enough. There's a lot of intermediates out there better than some pros - and of same manufactured durability.
kindly
Roman
PS: And what is, regarding a "clarinet for ever", an argument? Nothing! The reselling price only is important factor, if you plan to resell it definitely. Otherwise only the real buying price is to consider alone. I would recommend to limit the price and to check for good used instruments AND new stuff. What's fitting well will be bought - and right for him;-)
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Author: stevensfo
Date: 2010-04-22 09:59
-- "My Yamaha had nightmarish intonation problems and was not at all fun to play especially in the upper registers. Conversely, the Normandy was very easy to play in tune and the upper registers became something to be enjoyed rather than feared." --
What a coincidence. I have a collection of old instruments, many bought naively and rather too hastily from Ebay for very low prices. There was Yamaha 24ii that felt comfortable but definitely had a 'beginner' sound to it and which, after changing some pads, I gave away to a charity.
On the other hand, my Normandy 10 was/is in need of some nice bouncy new springs, but it sounds so much better. For some reason, the altissimo notes are amazingly easy and just seem to pop out by themselves.
Steve
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-04-22 12:43
Although I'm convinced that my pro-quality clarinets (all purchased used) are better instruments than my beginner and intermediate instruments, I also think it's a good idea to keep a plastic clarinet, rather than trade it in. If you ever need to play outdoors, especially in a marching band situation where the audience won't be able to hear the subtle nuances of quality playing anyway, then much better to risk the cheap instrument than the expensive one. If the weather turns bad, the sturdy plastic student clarinet may play better than the higher-quality one. Wet weather is much rougher on the playing characteristics of wooden clarinets than on plastic.
When I go cockroaching around at yard sales and flea markets, I see a lot of badly-damaged instruments and I've heard all sorts of horror stories about how they got that way -- one of the more common being, "The band sits in the bleachers while we wait to go out on the football field. I dropped my clarinet and it fell down through the bleachers to the sidewalk underneath." People drop their instruments while marching and while jostling around in crowds. Better it should happen to an old plastic Bundy than a new Buffet. Keeping an inexpensive instrument is also a wise idea for unfamiliar surroundings where security might not be adequate and instruments can get stolen. I love my best clarinets, but I try to take good care of the Bundy, too.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: karlbonner82
Date: 2010-04-23 08:43
I too agree with keeping a plastic one permanently. The fact is that you'll likely use it quite a bit if you play outdoors or in non-classical gigs, something I definitely see in my future. But this also means that you'll want the plastic horn to be pretty dang good, which is why I asked the original question. Otherwise it will be very annoying having to deal with poor intonation, difficult key mechanisms, difficulty making the attack sound clear and smooth, etc. etc.
You'd think that by now, plastic models would be available in intermediate or perhaps even professional quality. But alas, marching bands have to put up with "beginner" instruments.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2010-04-23 13:18
> You'd think that by now, plastic models would be available in intermediate
> or perhaps even professional quality. But alas, marching bands have
> to put up with "beginner" instruments.
I'm not that sure...let's assume we're talking about the average well-maintained Vito. They are built well, play in tune, have decent keywork etc.
But somehow, players seem to believe they can lay down their R13, grab the
Vito and continue their piece as if nothing happened, without having to
accomodate to the new instrument. If that doesn't work (and it probably won't), they blame the instrument for being of "studentish" quality.
In the reverse situation (stepping up) everyone would would exclaim "ooh, it feels sooo much better in my hand" even if they probably won't consistently hit all the holes during the first day, just because their fingers are used to something different.
--
Ben
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Author: RoBass
Date: 2010-04-24 07:34
Yes tictactux! That's one of the most used filters in mind ;-)
If I well experienced on my main instrument, I find all other instruments worser. And only if someones talks to me, this is a higher class horn, I "feel" and "hear" the difference - of course on the positive side ;-)
This psychological procedure is investigated and published very well, but the community stays on the former meaning...
Someone don't think so, and they play very respectable concerts on "very low quality" intermediate instruments **ggg**
kindly
Roman
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-04-28 13:59
While the difference between a bad student model and a reasonable intermediate can be considerable, this is worst case. I have a number of horns bought used, and after doing whatever work needs doing to bring them up to optimum performance I have no hesitation in saying that a good student instrument can be quite as good as an intermediate level instrument. My favourite back-up instrument is a Henkin plastic student model bought on that auction site for $A70. I repadded it and set it up properly, it has great tone, no intonation problems and plays like a dream. Comparing it with a Buffet E11, the Henkin is nicer to play and sounds better. A well fettled Selmer Signet or C300 can play on equal terms with some expensive intermediates, and do it for a quarter of the cost. I'm convinced that much of the diference is in the mind.
Tony F.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-04-29 17:39
tictactux wrote,
>>But somehow, players seem to believe they can lay down their R13, grab the Vito and continue their piece as if nothing happened, without having to
accomodate to the new instrument. If that doesn't work (and it probably won't), they blame the instrument for being of "studentish" quality.
>>
You bring up a good point: It helps if the plastic backup clarinet feels similar to the pro model. I own a Vito and I agree with the people who describe it as a good intermediate clarinet, but I don't play the Vito as well as I play the Bundy, even though I think the Vito is better. I'm sloppy on the Vito because I'm slow to accomodate to keywork that feels much different from my Buffet pair. I own a pro Leblanc in Bb and I think that if I spent most of my time practicing on that, then I'd probably prefer the Vito to the Bundy, because the Vito keywork handles like the Leblanc keywork. As it is, I just don't play as well on the Leblanc or the Vito as I do on Buffets, Selmers or the Bundy. It's a vicious circle: I don't play as well on the Leblanc-made clarinets because I spend less time practicing them, and then I spend less time practicing on them because I sound bad on them.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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