 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-04-09 05:33
So I know I come back with so many stupid questions, but I just have a unique experience.
I have a hard time with the embouchure. My lesson lesson teacher and I discussed double-lipping, but it's just causing bloody and painful dents in my upper lip. It relieves the biting from my lower lip. It works in everything below G5, but A and higher go really flat. I also have some air leaks. (But truly, if I start in the high register, it's in tune, but not for long as it goes flat)
Double-lipping, supposedly is supposed to help me understand the embouchure better, or make me so sick of biting, I don't want to do it anymore.
I think I'm ruining my embouchure permanently though. I have to deal with school band, playing important solos, etc.. I get yelled at for the immature flatness with attempted proper embouchure, so then I just bite, which mixes both which may confuse my oral muscles.
I think I have bad posture. I try sitting up straight, but once I begin to play, I start leaning forward over to the right.
I can't work with my lesson teacher that much since I've only got like 2 more lessons with her for the year.
It may or may not matter, but I play on an M13L Vandoren mouthpiece, which is a naturally flat mouthpiece, correct? It may be skewing my entire point, but I don't have a backup mouthpiece that actually works.
Edit: More pointless info, but I have tried doing basic mouthpiece & barrel exercises, but sometimes, it's so flat, that the note that comes out is a concert F natural. Other days, it's almost in tune.
Any suggestions?
Post Edited (2010-04-09 05:40)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-04-09 06:37
Whole bunch of issues there!
I'd suggest just double lipping for long tones while warming up. Don't hurt yourself. You might also try playing for a while every day with a wine cork cut in half, with each half-cylinder placed between your teeth and cheeks at the sides of your mouth.
Your posture is very likely bad, as it is with the vast majority of clarinetists. I've spent the past handful of months fixing mine up, and have made a lot of progress. To the right is a bit odd, but shouldn't be too hard to correct (it will probably take time though). Suggestions:
- Visit a good chiropractor. Get recommendations -- some are awesome, others are not.
- Exercise and stretch regularly. Sounds like you're hunching forward, which means that your front is pulling forward more than your back is pulling backward. Probably a combination of imbalance (you overuse the stuff that pulls you forward) and disuse (the stuff that pulls you back becomes, to some degree, deactivated). Lots of back exercises would do you well.
- Look into Alexander Technique. For now, try allowing the front of your neck to relax and allow your head to move back to a neutral position, rather than tilted forward with your chin out like it probably is, given your problems. Don't "pull your head back into place" but rather pay attention to inhibiting the habits and tension that pull your head forward. With your head up and spine in a neutral position, it's much more natural for your shoulders to go back.
- Find other ways to release tension while playing. There are LOTS of ways to go about this.
- Watch yourself in a mirror as you play, ideally from the side. Don't necessarily try to fix how you sit right away, but try to become aware of how the different positions you sit in look. You'll probably be surprised at how different some of them are than you think. Experiment with different kinds of sitting and moving around, and notice what happens when you start to play.
The bad posture is probably not the culprit in flatness, but could be contributing.
"Sitting up straight" can be misleading, as sometimes when people "sit up straight," they do it by exerting a significant amount of effort to put everything in a "straight" position, and the second you relax (and you will relax -- can't keep it up forever) it all goes to crap. Finding positions where you can be sitting upright in a neutral *and relaxed* position without "putting yourself there" is key, and it's especially tricky to do while you're woodshedding Stravinsky.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Sarah Elbaz
Date: 2010-04-09 07:32
Double lip playing can be good as an excercise for a short time. If you use it make sure that the clarinet is on your knee- this way you will not bite too much and it can help your posture as well.
I you play M13 with a very soft reed- it may be the reason that you are flat.
I think that 2 lessons a year is not enough.
Sarah
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-04-09 09:17
The matter of posture may be because you are holding the clarinet too close to the vertical. Try raising it to about a 45 degree angle, it may help. This could also be related to your whole emboucher problem. I used to have a similar problem, and most of mine was related to posture. I find that if I play when I'm tired the clarinet tends to droop back to the vertical and the problems come back.
Tony F.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-09 10:22
I switched to double lip in college and remember a LONG AND PAINFUL transition. It took several months to become comfortable at all, or be able to play for any length of time in one go. The big things were the upper lip comfort as you mention along with stability. It felt as though the clarinet wanted to tip to the left or the right, never really staying still.
Perhaps a half strength less on the reed may help at first. And yes, your upper register will take time to bring in line. There should NOT be any bleeding - this is a sure sign that there is too much jaw pressure.
Remember BITE is a four letter word !!!!
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-04-09 11:42
A couple of reactions:
The flatness in your upper register is almost certainly because you aren't keeping the embouchure back against your teeth. If you watch Tom Ridenour's video about double lip (it's been mentioned in a couple of other threads), he uses the term "snugging up." You do this mostly with your right thumb pushing the clarinet gently into your embouchure. This can't be exaggerated or you can wind up cutting both lips - not just the top. Many double lip players rest the instrument on their knee (often the right knee, I guess because the right hand is at the bottom), which has already been suggested (but your natural tendency to do this may be responsible for your leaning forward and to the right). The important thing is that your mouthpiece shouldn't be pulling *away* from your teeth because of the weight of the instrument.
In my opinion you should be experimenting with double lip during your practice time until it's comfortable for at last short periods. Then try it in band rehearsals when the notes are in a comfortable range. Don't use it in band for passages it produces a poor result. When I was first developing a double lip embouchure I was constantly switching back and forth. I found the most improvement from double lip in the chalumeau so I used it as much as I could below the break. I definitely did not switch all at once (I now play double lip all the time, but I switched 35 years ago), and, to me, putting up with "bloody and painful dents" is counterproductive.
You'll get the most mileage from using double lip *as a learning tool* if you try to duplicate the double lip feeling even when your upper lip is not under your teeth. You can do this by forming the double lip embouchure and then letting the upper come in front of your teeth but pull it firmly against them so that it's actively involved. This is certainly not the only way to form a single lip embouchure, and many successful single lip players don't pay much attention to the upper lip or try to engage it actively, but if double lip turns out to be of any help in solving your biting problems, being able to emulate it when you play single lip can preserve the benefit without torturing yourself with using both lips beyond your endurance level.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-04-09 12:38
I would respectively submit that single lip players DO actively use their upper lip ALL THE TIME. This is a crucial part of control and tuning. Actually, the conscious use of more upper lip for better upper register control is what Combs used to refer to as "turning the key."
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2010-04-09 13:30
Here i one thing that very few people ever really consider. The pressure that is exerted on the top of the mouthpiece is the SAME pressure that is exerted on the reed. If you play double lip you feel it in your lip if you play single lip you don't. My guess is: You have a tone generating system, mouthpiece and reed that require a lot of jaw pressure to make work. If you're getting bloody bite marks in your top lip YOU ARE USING TOO MUCH PRESSURE!
I'm going to describe a procedure to you, I want you to try it exactly as I describe it to you and I would like you to report back as to your results.
1. Put clarinet into mouth, very loose lips, almost to the tip of the mouthpiece. This is just barely in you mouth. Make no attempt at an embouchure! Open G
2. blow air into the clarinet as much as you can without the reed vibrating. You should hear a Hiss, get the loudest hiss you can just shy of reed vibration
3. Using nothing but your right thumb, start pushing the clarinet up and into your mouth. DO NOT move you lips in anyway, they will move as a result to the thumb movement. Resist the mouthpiece wedge with your jaw. Make jaw firm but not "lock jaw". This is the "snugging" notion that Tom Ridenour mentions in his writings.
4. You will find that there will be a point that the sound is very clear and beautiful and this will correspond to being in tune or really close. The clarinet will feel incredibly stabile in your hands, a feel that new 2x lippers have mentioned as problematic.
I will go out on a limb here and say, that anything you do with your lips that stop or inhibit the vibration of the reed is counter productive in making a nice sound.
Tom Puwalski, Leblanc clarinet and Rico artist,Former clarinet soloist with The U.S. Army Field Band, clarinetist with The Atonement, and Author of "The Clarinetists Guide to Klezmer"
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-04-09 14:58
Paul wrote, Quote:
"It felt as though the clarinet wanted to tip to the left or the right, never really staying still."
In my case when switching, the clarinet always tilted to the left, so that the reed was not snug against the right side of my lower lip, and the top of my mouthpiece was not snug on the left side of my upper lip.
To remedy this, I had to let gravity take control. I placed the clarinet on my knees, put the mouthpiece in my mouth, and just "let go". The mouthpiece fell into position.
In my case it was not so much embouchure deviation to one side, but had more to do with the right hand pushing up and left, and the left hand kind of pulling left.
Most double lip writings talk about "snugging up" the mouthpiece into the mouth-my approach is different-it is more "snugging down". Instead of bringing the clarinet to me, I let the clarinet fall, and I go to the clarinet. I keep the clarinet stable not by holding it up with the thumb, but by holding it down, with the thumb ON TOP of the thumb rest, and the gravity of the weight of my hand keeping it stable. I realize this is unorthodox, but it works for me. I guess I am backwards-instead of everything having to "come up", I have to let everything fall down.
Let me say that this is my approach and it certainly is not the norm, and would probably not work for everyone (though I am not so sure). I know many around here get very emotional about how things are phrased on this board, especially with embouchure.
Post Edited (2010-04-09 15:02)
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-04-09 16:30
Paul, you may well be right. I have no idea how single lip players outside the Bonade-Curtis sphere (where my teachers came from) use the upper lip. I was certainly taught to use it quite actively, as I suggested in my other post. Whether or not the single lip players in Brussels or Tokyo do the same, I have no way to know, so I left the opening.
Karl
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-04-09 16:44
You're right, though, now that I reread my post - I shouldn't have said that "many successful players" don't think about how their upper lips are involved. I really don't know that, since I've discussed it with so few players outside my own local circle. That's more than anything else what a forum like this is good for - to find out how other people do things. :-)
Cheers,
Karl
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Author: moolatte
Date: 2010-04-09 22:18
Just a mentioning to everyone, I'm not trying to use double-lipping for every day use. It's just supposedly an exercise in order to do embouchure with single lip correctly.
I'll try these each individually later this weekend, and see how they equal out, and whichever is most easiest I will pick up on.
Also, I don't have just 2 lessons a year. It's 1 lesson a week, and school's almost out, and I've got just 2 lessons left until the fall.
Post Edited (2010-04-09 22:21)
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Author: Rusty
Date: 2010-04-10 21:59
I can`t understand all the difficulty. My teeth never touch the MPC neither does my lip tuck under my teeth in which case I`ld be biting on it. Just keep the top lip firm, that is what presses down on the MPC counter to the softer lip on the reed.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-04-10 22:27
Can double lip help: Yes.
Can you play DL always? Yes for some, no for others.
Can you play SL well without doing DL? Yes
If you start to bleed should you stop? Yes.
Does this mean your doing something wrong? Yes. Clarinet shouldn't make you bleed!
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-04-10 22:40
Why don't you continue the lessons through the summer? It seems counterproductive to drop off when you will actually have more time to practice and hone your technique without having the pressure of daily rehearsals and concerts.
Except for the rare family vacations, I didn't stop with my teacher from the time I began lessons with him at the end of 7th grade, until I graduated high school. If your teacher is available, make use of the opportunity.
Jeff
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Author: Bob Bernardo
Date: 2010-04-11 04:37
You said your upper lip hurts, bleeds, when playing. Well this is surely a stong indication that you have a biting issue. You are not this first player to experience this and it's great that you are attacking this early.
Since you are in pain, well the answer is simply back off. As others have already said, take it slowly. I would also play long tones, but add some scales on the slow side practicing articulation. Most likely these new practice habits may take as long as a year; the benefits will be well worth the work. I can articulate a lot better playng with a DL.
Try playing DL for about 15 to 20 minutes a day and each week add a few minutes to your time.
The Vandoren M13 is really a very good mouthpiece. If you are playing a Buffet clarinet there are a few flat notes. Work with a tuner and see if the lower register plays in tune and then a shade flat with the upper register. Feel free in emailing me with the results, the type of horn you are using and also the brand of reeds and the strength.
The clarinet should be really fun to play. If someone is hurting when playing it's not fun, so the main thing here is to have fun.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-04-11 18:39
Quote:
You said your upper lip hurts, bleeds, when playing.
In all my years of playing, both single and double lip, I have never had the inside of the top or bottom lip bleed. After an 8 hour All-state rehearsal in 11th grade I did develop a severe ulceration on my bottom lip as I was surely biting from exhaustion, but there was no blood that I recall. (I played single lip during that time).
I'm sure there are people who have very sharp teeth that do cut through the soft tissue of the inside of the lips...but I have to imagine there must be a great deal of soreness and severe pain before the appearance of blood in those situations.
Soreness and pain means stop. Your body is trying to tell you something. It takes a while to develop the callous on the upper lip and those muscles making up the embouchure - you can't just do 2 hours of double lip on the first day and band rehearsal, etc. Now if your lip is bleeding after just a few minutes of double lip...major red flag. Point is...there should not be blood - single or double lip embouchure - period. If sharp teeth are the issue, there are ways to deal with that. Otherwise, you are biting like the dickens and not listening to your body.
BTW - it sounds like this is a bad time to mess around with your embouchure due to your current playing commitments. I would discuss with your teacher about postponing any changes until Summer break, where you can focus solely on correcting the embouchure - not having to perform for others.
A short note on posture - try sitting at the edge of your chair...not all the way back. Especially if it is one of those chairs that has the scoopy seat, which I find automatically makes my butt sink in and causes my back to curve into a C.
Post Edited (2010-04-11 18:43)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2010-04-12 04:32
>> In all my years of playing, both single and double lip, I have never had the inside of the top or bottom lip bleed. <<
Me too... until for one piece I had to hold a low D on bass clarinet for more than five minutes. It came right the end of a 60 minutes trio. One time I bled.
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