 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ito
Date: 2010-03-18 10:18
HI everyone,what can be done if i find that metal ligature are too bright to me?i wished to use a metal ligature but my conductor told me that i sound too shrilled and too bright..what can i do to make it darker sounding in any way? thanks
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Author: stevesklar
Date: 2010-03-18 10:43
It depends what kind of metal ligature you use?
A vandoren Optima ?
a simple loop band (my guess) or one with a reed cradle
We don't know what kind of metal lig you are using ??? or much else about your embouchure, mouthpiece, etc
But, generally speaking, going to a fabric/leather ligature will eliminate some high end "brightness" and "shrill"
Rovner has an inexpensive fabric ligature - music stores usually have a generic equivalent of it too (cheaper)
==========
Stephen Sklar
My YouTube Channel of Clarinet Information
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-18 10:49
The ligature is NOT the issue here. If someone from a distance is talking about a sound with lots of overtones and less body you need to look at things like allowing the reed to vibrate as fully as possible.
First, see if you are maximizing the full potential of the reed/mouthpiece set up. Play an open "G" starting with as little mouthpiece as possible. Continue to take in more and more mouthpiece (keep playing that "G") until you SQUAWK. At that point, just back off a tad, and THAT should be the ideal spot to place your embouchure.
Now that you have THE SPOT, the most important component (for me) is AIR. You need to press from your belly, keeping your stomach OUT as you expel your breath. The set up is somewhat like what you would do if you said to a buddy, "hey, go ahead and punch me in the stomach!." You're going for that "feeling" all the time (that is, a FIRM belly).
One key indicator to whether you are producing a good solid sound is if you feel the clarinet vibrating under your fingers. If not, KEEP AT IT.
PS. A LOT of great players use metal ligatures.
....................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2010-03-18 11:00)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-03-18 11:01
Paul Aviles wrote:
> The ligature is NOT the issue here.
>
and you know that for a fact because?
If the one thing you change is your ligature and people make comment - hmmm - I wonder why?
While all I personally have is my own anecdotal evidence, at least I have something.
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Author: ito
Date: 2010-03-18 12:20
i am using 2 metal ligature,the charles bay and also vandoren master..it seemed that i do not produce a solid tone or i should say that the notes produced is very shrilling..abit too shrill for people's ears..i do not have problem with leather ligature but i would like to know what way or what can i do to make the metal ligature don't sound as bright as now..
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-03-18 12:27
Well certainly a ligature has some influence in how you sound and if you try a different ligature and the conductor tells you he notices a big enough difference to please him that that's all you need to do. But, you need to realize that the ligature is only one small part of your sound. As noted above, certain types of ligatures will dampen out or enhance highs or lows in the tone quality making some more or less shrill, bright or dark. The mouthpiece and reed combination probably play the largest part in influencing your tone quality as far as equipment goes. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: RAB
Date: 2010-03-18 13:02
Without knowing what kind of ligature you have I can only offer a few suggestions.
I have put cork or leather on the rails of Boade where it touches the reed and on other ligatures I have put thin leather around the inside body of the ligature where it touches the mouth piece.
This helped some players and with some players it was minimal.
Hopes this helps
Rodney Berry
Repair Dept
Muncy Winds Music Company
Boone, N.C.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-18 13:14
Dear Mark,
I don't think the spirit of having someone else comment on sound, particularly a comment such as "shrill," would indicate a "small" issue. While some conductors do have ears like cats, I have never run into one that thought a clarinet sounded like a train going over a tressel and was pleased with the result of a change in ligature.
.................Paul Aviles
Post Edited (2010-03-18 16:37)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2010-03-18 13:42
Paul Aviles wrote:
> I don't think the spirit of having someone else comment on
> sound, particularly a comment such as "shrill," would indicate
> a "small" issue.
My true experience:
I have a Selmer 10G that I play. A very experienced player/friend of mine always thought it was too bright, too "shrill".
I changed to a new ligature without him knowing one day. He came running from another room during my warm-up, eager to see my new Buffet RC.
Small issue, indeed. I use that ligature to this day.
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Author: GLHopkins
Date: 2010-03-18 13:48
Ito, we know you use a Bay and Vandoren Master ligature. What mouthpiece and reed and reed strenght are you using? What clarinet do you play? Do you use a patch on your mouthpiece?
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-03-18 13:51
I am struggling a little to understand why this is an issue. If you "do not have problem with leather ligature" and the conductor was happy with your sound using the leather ligature, why not just keep using it? Why do you want to find a way to use metal rather than stay with what was already working for you? (This is not meant to disparage metal ligatures - I use an inverted Bonade ligature.)
Karl
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Author: ito
Date: 2010-03-18 14:04
i am playing on a crystal pomarico ruby mellow with PL class Strong size reeds,i do not have problem with leather but always have problem with the metal ligature,thus actually i wish to find out what is the reason behind it,might be my embrochure? because the metal ligature project out more while the leather is very resistance,not as easy blowing as the metal..thus i actually ask this question..
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-18 16:44
I'll throw one more guess that perhaps the metal ligatures are holding the reed on a bit more firmly compensating for some seasonal warpage, but they are being positioned a bit too close to the top of the reed. If you have not already tried moving the metal ligature closer to the HEEL of the reed, give that a shot.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2010-03-18 20:11
My thots are that ?bright vs dark? is very subjective via the typr of music you are playing, marches vs opera P E. In my chase of "dark", I tried inverting a fabric lig, but still didn;t like what I heard. Having/using an "O-Ring [2 rings}" lig I liked it, so bot a box of the smaller size rings, and using 2 or 3 rings to ?fairly well? hold the reed, it keeps me happy. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2010-03-19 00:31
In David Pino's book, The Clarinet and Clarinet Playing, he writes about using a shoelace ligature. Here's a link to an old discussion:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=14573&t=14573
I personally like my Rovner dark. I've tried a variety of other ligatures, and this one works just as well for me as many that are more expensive.
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Author: buit15
Date: 2010-03-20 13:29
I just purchased a Rovner Dark thanks to the advice gleamed from many posts about this subject. It didn't hurt that this was only a $17 experiment. I had been playing an Vandoren Optima metal for my entire clarinet experience (about 5 years). The results in my playing sound is immediately noticeable and enjoyable to me. I tried a Eddie Daniels also at the store, but the standard dark Rovner seemed easier to play. I am sure this is just one of the many experiments I will do in ths coming future as I try to find the right mix of mouthpiece/lig/reed for me, but this first step is a winner so far. I also moved to a V12 Vandoren #3 from the standard Vandoren #3 and that also is another step forward. I would advise those making these types of leaps of faith to make one jump at a time as confusion comes easily with too many variables, especially for a beginner player.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-20 17:33
Great advice........one leap at a time.
Also look at the Rovner Light. Not quite as dampened, just as magical.
..................Paul Aviles
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-03-20 17:46
Some ligatures give me more projection than others and some are more reed friendly than others. Other than that I can hear some difference in my tone for like 1-2 weeks then I just sound like myself. Everybody who do not play clarinet and even some of my friend clarinetists don't hear any difference at all even if I try many ligatures in a row in front of them.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-20 17:52
Put the reed on without a ligature and hold it with your thumb. Play a few notes (obviously, hold the reed with your right thumb and you can play a few left hand notes). When you put the ligature on, it should sound at least a good or ENHANCE the performance of the reed and mouthpiece.
In my experience, ligatures without metal anywhere (except for the screw) dampen the sound and impede the resonance of the mouthpiece and reed. The Vandoren Leather and BG Revelation also dampen it quite a bit, but do have metal on the reed providing a bit of a more ringing sound.
It seems that many don't like the sound of the upper partials of the clarinet and want to dampen it in any way possible. Some aftermarket barrels and bells also have this affect.
Most metal ligatures, like the various styles of bonades or harrison or kaspars, lend themselves to a quicker response and a more free sound, allowing a sound full of a wide range of harmonics.
Many people who play leather or other fabric ligatures are somewhat afraid of what happens when they put on a metal ligature. The reed feels like it's going out of control. Some players use more jaw pressure to get a focus and ring in the sound with fabric ligatures and are turned off by metal ligatures because they will indeed produce a much brighter sound.
To me, metal gives a more predictable response from the reed, allows greater tonal flexibility, facilitates a relaxed jaw, a fuller harmonic, and greater projection and focus to the sound.
Everyone has their preferences of course. I feel that many players use heavy fabric ligatures because they seek a darker sound, but end up with (as Mark Nuccio mentioned when discussing slightly softer reeds that may sound bright to some) "not a brighter sound, but a more interesting sound".
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2010-03-21 22:33
I like the suggestion of playing a few notes while holding the reed on with your thumb.
The tendency is to buy more stuff to change your sound. I find some "dark" mouthpieces and "dark" ligatures are hard to control. The the sound isn't as bright, but they add resistance, and this can create other issues.
By all means experiment taking in more or less mouthpiece. Have you tried using different reeds?
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Author: Marge
Date: 2010-03-22 00:13
As a very inexpensive experiment, you might want to try a home-made ligature—using two-sided Velcro strips (hooks on one side, loops/fuzzy stuff on the other) formed into circles to go around the mouthpiece and reed.
After I got my B-flat Selmer 10G a few years ago (and started using a more satisfactory mouthpiece than the Selmer one that came with it), I still didn't love the sound I was producing or the ease of sound production. After a lot of thought (and reading numerous BB postings) I decided not to spring for another metal ligature (of whatever fancy type) to use instead of the ligature that came with the clarinet or the one from my old clarinet, but to try a relatively inexpensive Rovner (can't recall whether it was light or dark). That was better, but not wonderful.
Velcro strips had been mentioned on the BB (and ditto for shoelaces, but I didn't think I wanted to fool with those). So I started looking for two-sided Velcro and found some in our small-town hardware store, in a package of 10-inch strips that I think was intended to be sold/used for bundling electrical (or other) cords. I don't think the package (of maybe 5 or 10 strips) cost more then $3.00.
The strips I bought are 1/2-inch wide (because that was the only size available locally). But I think that using two spaced loops/circles of the 1/2-inch width would be better anyway than trying to use wider Velcro (either one or two strips), because of the varying circumference of the mouthpiece-reed combination depending on where one measures. When properly (in fact, fairly permanently) adjusted for my brand of reed and mouthpiece combination, my two loops are not the same diameter. For length, just trim to the right size to allow for some (but not a lot of) overlapping where the two ends meet—experiment. I put the overlapped area on the non-reed side (top of mouthpiece) so that the reed has just one Velcro-strip thickness over it.
After some fiddling and adjusting the circle sizes for placement locations on the reed and the amount of tightness that worked best, I was a convert. I've never gone back to my metal ligatures or the Rovner, and I don't intend to.
I should note that if I also played the A clarinet and had to switch my mouthpiece quickly between instruments, the Velcro ligature would not be satisfactory because the reed likely wouldn't stay where it should during the mouthpiece removal and reattachment process. It might or might not work when participating in a marching band—I just don't know because I switched to the Velcro after departing the community marching band.
I also should note that the order of reed-mouthpiece assembly is a little different with Velcro. One doesn't start each time with the flat strips and then place them while holding the reed in place on the mouthpiece. It's almost impossible to end up with the right tightness/placement that way. First I place the formed loops from previous uses over the mouthpiece, a little higher than where they ultimately should be so they're loose enough to slip the butt end of the reed under them. Then I carefully place the reed in its best location and make any small adjustments as necessary, then slide down toward the butt end each loop to where I know each works best (and has the correct tightness). If the size of either loop needs adjustment for tightness (or while experimenting to see where on the mouthpiece-reed each works best), do the loop-size adjusting when it/they are off the mouthpiece. (This is harder to explain in writing than it is to do.)
When removing the reed from the mouthpiece after playing, first remove the loops over the beak end of the mouthpiece (or slide them up to where they're sufficiently loose) in order to free up the reed. Unless adjustments are needed to the size of the loops, just store in your case each time the loops as they were used while playing. Mine don't need adjusting very often.
I guess I actually have what might be called a lifetime supply of Velcro ligature material, as I don't think I have used even half of what was in the package (which is tucked away somewhere)—even after giving a couple to a high school sax player in our community concert band after his mother (a flutist) said he wasn't at rehearsal because he lost his ligature (and it would be a trip of some miles to replace it). He found the Velcro ligature perfectly satisfactory to use for the several weeks it took him to get a new metal ligature.
Actually, using Velcro for a ligature has been discussed periodically on this board over the years, so my information here is hardly new/novel. If you really want to read what others (and I) have said previously, just search the postings by using the word Velcro as the search term. All the search results might not pertain to the use of Velcro as a ligature, but many/most of them will. I'm posting this here because very likely those who are relatively new to the BB might benefit from trying a Velcro ligature wouldn't think to do such a search.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2010-03-22 21:38
Experimenting is always good.
Pre-made Velcro ligatures worked well for me, except when switching clarinets.
Also used catfish line (recommeneded by John Mohler?), available at fishing stores, and it did work really well. But I found I didn't have time to be careful enough when swapping clarinets. For a while, I used two mouthpieces and two reeds, both tied on, to be safe.
Then I gave up, went back to my old metal lig, and tried to find ways to keep the brightness down. There will, however, be those times that you need to have a bright sound, which your setup can make impossible.
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Author: Marge
Date: 2010-03-24 00:04
I was especially interested in Ralph's last paragraph, since I don't find that using Velcro for a ligature is an impediment to producing a pleasing bright sound when it is wanted/appropriate. It does seem to help prevent brightness/shrillness when it is not wanted, however. Of course, what is precisely meant by bright and dark is a good question since there may be as many definitions as players.
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