 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: retro69
Date: 2010-03-06 17:01
Hi and thanks for reading.
I was trying out some clarinets today to upgrade from my Buffet B12, I have been playing for 2 years and thought it was time to spend some pennies on a new one!
After spending all day at the shop trying a number of different brands I noticed I was playing around 20 cents flat on all the clarinets.
I spoke to the person there and he told me it was because I was using a synthetic reed and that "Only professionals can use a synthetic and keep it in tune, you would be better off just using Vandoren cane reeds"
Now I have used cane in the past but really like the ease of use and I love the sound of my Legere Signatures I use so to hear this was really disappointing.
He also told me that the B12's played sharp for students so I have probably developed a poor embrochure and need to tighen things up a bit.
I use Vandoren B45 dot and was tuning to 440. I wonder if this is the problem due to what I have read, it not being a "13 series" profile?
Im really confused now. Any help would be really appreciated!
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2010-03-06 17:39
Sounds like the salesman wants to sell you reeds. A reed that's too soft, whether synthetic or cane, will tend toward flatness, so it may be that the reed you're using is just too soft.
Did he explain why B12s play sharp "for students" and not for professionals? If you've been using a meter and you've been tuning to A=440, then at least your tuning note has been in tune, not sharp.
Don't forget that a cold instrument is going to be flatter. Warm doesn't mean room temp. The pitch comes up as you play on it for the first few minutes. How much time were you giving each instrument before you checked it against a tuner?
This sounds to me like a sales pitch. If you're working with a teacher, he or she can give you much more objective advice than the store clerk you were talking to.
Karl
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Author: William
Date: 2010-03-06 18:37
I have been playing on Forestone reeds for about a year now and am experiancing no pitch problems. Give yourself a chance to get used to how to voice your synthetics and enjoy the freedom from cane. I'll never go back to those evil slivers. FWIW--I play a set of vintage R13's with original barrels and a Chicago Kaspar #14.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-03-06 20:10
I have noticed little or no difference in pitch among V12, Rico Reserve, Legere Quebec or Legere Signature cuts. There are variations (somewhat) in th overall sound, but noit the general pitch.
This has been the case with three different Zinner based mouthpieces (Lane, Grabner and Smith), and a number of different clarinets, including an Evette Master Model, a Buffet R13, a Leblanc/Backun Cadenza and a Ridenour Lyrique.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
Post Edited (2010-03-06 20:11)
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Author: retro69
Date: 2010-03-06 20:43
Many thanks for the replies so far. Its great to hear opinions from really knowledgeable people, this forum is great for "newbies" like myself!
William, I totally agree, if I can stick with my Legeres I will be a happy man!
Jeff, as it happens I have a Walter Grabner Mouthpeice the "Intermettzo" student one which I belive tuned to 440. He took one look at it and laughed and said "no wonder your so flat, its an American mouthpeice made from a German Zinner blank, this is never going to work!"
This also annoyed (and confused!) me as ive been playing it for months on my B12 and it has sounded great. That is when I took out my B45 and started playing that.
Kdk, I think you may have been right about the warming up of it. The room itself was quite cold and although I played it for a little while im not sure if it got fully up to temperature maybe 10 mins or so for each one.
I use strength 3 Legere Signature reeds, maybe I could look to try slightly harder ones too.
Post Edited (2010-03-06 20:47)
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Author: BartHx
Date: 2010-03-07 02:14
1. The salesman told you that you would not be able to use a synthetic reed successfully.
2. The salesman told you that a Grabner mouthpiece would never work.
I think it's time to find a new salesman who knows more about clarinets than the buzzwords he has found successful in making a sale in the past. On the other hand, cane reeds might be a less expensive way to play with different strengths as the last information I got from Legere said they would only allow one strength exchange for a $3 fee and you wouldn't be able to compare them side by side.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-03-07 02:29
I agree with the salesmen to a large degree. The legeres do tend to play lower, and with a young player and unrefined embouchure it can be quite noticeable.
I don't think the salesmen was being ethical in telling you that these reeds basically can't play in tune (which is untrue).
More than likely, as mentioned above, the difference between a student and professional instrument's tuning (442 v.s. 440) is more to blame. To compensate, a shorter barrel would be a better solution.
(FWIW: I have 3 legere signatures that I like very much. A good legere of proper strength plays well in tune for me, but once they get worn out, which they will eventually, they play lower).
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2010-03-07 03:50
I had tried Legeres for a while and tested a few Signatures in a store and I was very disappointed to find that they all play flat for me. It is very consistent, too. What ever the pitch was on cane, it was 3 cents lower on the Signature, and the regular Legeres were lower.
A different barrel would fix it, but I don't want to buy new barrels for Bb and A just to play on those reeds.
I really like the way the Signatures sound and respond. I hope that this can be fixed in future designs..
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Author: retro69
Date: 2010-03-07 07:50
I think I will look to get a new set of legere reeds (I have 3 im using in rotation and have probably been using them for around 4-5 months?)
I dont know how long these bad boys last but I've given them a good run i think!
The clarinet I liked most out of all of them was the Yamaha CSG. I loved the sound but didnt want to make the purchase because I was playing so flat. I wanted to be sure I could fix the issue before I spent the monies!
I belive that one comes with 2 barrels anyway? Could anyone confirm that? The yamaha web site was not clear on this.
If it has a shorter one, that may sort out my problems
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-03-07 13:02
The CSGs (at least a few years ago) only came with one barrel. My suggestion is to see if you can get them to offer an exchange for one of the shorter barrels (they may very well not, and the others sizes will probablay have to be ordered direct from Yamaha USA). The extra barrels are around $110. I went with the shortest which is around 53.4 mm (ish - someone correct this if it not right). There is one a in between the "standard" length and this but I prefer having "room to spare" so to speak.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Wicked Good ★2017
Date: 2010-03-07 13:40
Just a "me-too" post here, with suggestions that work for me. No implications that they would work for anyone else, but who knows?
Synthetic reeds as a rule play flat for me as well, and I've been playing the clarinet professionally and semi-professionally for over thirty years. Air support is a contributing factor. I need to increase my diaphragm support when playing on synthetics.
Embouchure choice plays into this as well. I play with a double-lip embouchure, which discourages biting and brings down my pitch. If I play single-lip on the synthetics, no discernible pitch variations are noticed from when I play double-lip on cane reeds.
A shorter barrel does help in my case. Either my 65mm Buffet-Moennig or 64mm David Hite barrel puts my Buffet R13 at A=440 with most Legeres and Forestones I've tried, with minimal support changes, and without switching to an uncomfortable (to me) single-lip embouchure.
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Author: john connor
Date: 2010-03-07 20:12
1. I bought a CSG in the UK. Came with 2 barrels.
2. To play Forestone reeds to pitch I have to almost bite them. A lot of people play with so tight an embouchure this might not be an issue.
3. Below strength 3.5, roughly, I have found that Legere's are flat on my Grabner K14, and you can't correct by 'biting'. Legere's just buzz when you bite. Check out this pro's site and info on synthetic reeds and how they blow flat - he had the same problem - http://blog.davidhthomas.net/ of course, he might have already posted a reply to you, but I don't know his handle here....
4. I have the same problem with soft cane. So. Maybe you just need a harder reed to match your facing?
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Author: Brendan Martin
Date: 2010-03-08 10:11
Hi John,
Could I ask what barrel you use?
I really dont want to get into the habit of biting to ensure I stay in pitch, this could only be counter productive. I noticed though that on the CSG's they do a number of barrel lengths.
Paul mentioned a few posts ago he uses the 53mm barrel which from looking is the shortest they do.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-09 15:59
THEORETICALLY, a lower reed resonant frequency would couple to the air column in the clarinet to produce a lower system frequency.
For a given reed shape, the resonant frequency will depend on the ratio of the reed's stiffness to density. The damping of the material also has a small effect on resonant frequency --more damping will lower the resonant frequency
Cane is stiff and light with "moderate" damping. I would expect synthetic materials to have higher density than wood. Does a Forestone reed float on water? I have a Bari that sinks.
So, for those of you who have synthetics at hand, please take the time to blow your mouthpiece at a tuner with cane and synthetic reeds and let us know if the synthetic reeds play flat with just the mouthpiece.
Brave souls could set up a way to clamp the reed to the edge of a table and measure its "plucked" tone.
Bob Phillips
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Author: kilo
Date: 2010-03-09 17:23
I'll be really interested to read a technical explanation as to why some people find that synthetics play flat and other people find they work fine. And I'd love to know why the manufacturers, after all their research and development, never noticed this problem.
A Legere floats, by the way. I did a very rudimentary "pluck" comparison of a cane reed and a Legere. With the reed clamped to a table 1/8" below the end of the vamp, the synthetic sounded significantly lower than the dry cane reed. But when I soaked the reed the two sounds were much more similar.
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Author: john connor
Date: 2010-03-09 18:45
Manufacturers will have noticed, I'm sure. There's many different embouchures and some people play tighter.
Retro69 The CSG came with 2 barrells - a 56 and 55mm. I bought it about a month ago because I was sure I must be missing out on something not owning a brand new small bore clarinet. I don't play it much. It isn't even broken in yet, in fact. I found (and this shouldn't have surprised me, I guess) that I much preferred both my old Selmers (a CT and 9*) and both my old 1010s (a pre-war and a late model).
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Author: john connor
Date: 2010-03-09 20:07
Retro69. Your email isn't public. Can you mail me off line - j.connor@skynet.be
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-03-11 02:06
Thank you Kilo for your lab test.
I mounted my Bari reed and tried squawking the mouthpiece and playing it on my Buffet RC. I compared it's behavior to that of a Vandoren V12 of similar strength.
I found that I could not discern any difference between the two reeds. Both could be easily lipped up or down a semi-tone with the mouthpiece only, and I found no concrete difference between the two reeds
intonation in my pracitce session.
Bob Phillips
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Author: eefer ★2017
Date: 2010-03-11 16:32
Personally, I'd try some different mouthpieces, harder reed(s) and a combination of both. And be sure to try them on the clarinets you are considering. Unless you REALLY like your B45, there are better mouthpieces, for less money. If you are stuck on Vandoren products, try the M15 or M30, or even a 5RV.
I'd be interested in knowing why the B45 is your choice. Just for kicks, try a Hite mouthpiece (any of them....and ask the salesman to leave you to your own devices). If you like the cheapest one (Premier), then try a Fobes Debut and a Gennusa Excellente. These are all inexpensive, excellent mouthpieces that are more flexible in the long run. Most new students arrive at the B45 because it is easy to play on soft reeds. It isn't forgiving where articulation is concerned, IMO, and therefore, you should look for a better mouthpiece before looking for a new clarinet. You will need to use a harder reed more than likely (don't use the one from your B45...it won't work), as the Hite, Fobes and Gennusa are all closer than the B45. Then you can decide if you really like the B45, or maybe make a mouthpiece switch. If you switch mouthpieces, you will need to play for several weeks on the new one before trying clarinets. You need to be able to play with control of the entire tonal range on the new mouthpiece.
There is no reason why you can't play on synthetic reeds. I am assuming you are looking to improve your ability to execute, when playing. Someone with just two years experience will benefit far more on a better mouthpiece set-up than with a new instrument, provided their instrument is in good playing condition.
If you don't understand why I am making the recommendations above, then you need to spend some time learning how mouthpieces and reeds work to give you the sound that you want (including pitch). Otherwise, you will be throwing good money after bad. Best of luck.
Nancy
Nancy Buckman
AACC Symphony Orchestra
Opera AACC
Early Music Society of Northern MD
(and a lot of other ensembles, too)
nebuckman@gmail.com
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2010-03-12 13:25
I find no pitch difference between Vandoren cane and Legere synthetics.
Tony F.
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