 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Woop Woop
Date: 2010-02-17 23:22
I was looking through Backun’s website the other day (as you do) and came across his range of bells, which now includes Bass clarinet bells. It states on his website “These bells are designed to incorporate your current metal bell and U joint. We will solder, thread and re-plate your existing pieces- sending back the complete package. You will be able to take full advantage of both your metal and cocobolo Backun bell with a simple twist.” Has anyone actually done this and how does it work? Anyone have any photos of what the end result looks like?
Woop Woop
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-18 00:13
I just had it done through John Parrette. You can also get the U joint gold plated at the same time. Its a beautiful combination. For a great picture, go to Morrie's site, to the "Wall of Fame" http://www.backunmusical.com/wall.html
then go the second row of people, fourth person, Chuck Currie, and you will see a great picture. Morrie did a beautiful job.
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Author: NBeaty
Date: 2010-02-18 00:18
I personally don't own a bass, so obviously I don't own one of these bells.
I have seen Michael Lowenstern's selmer bass that has the cocobolo backun bell. It is beautiful. It works by taking the bell off of the instrument, unscrewing the bell from the metal U-Joint (made separate by Morrie) and replacing it with the other bell.
Pretty simple, but definitely custom, and definitely going to set you back a few bucks. When the bell is screwed in and attached, i don't believe it looks any different from original, save for possibly seeing the point of solder if you're up close.
Morrie will probably join in this thread and explain further, but it's not too complicated.
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Author: Woop Woop
Date: 2010-02-18 00:46
I don't own a bass either, but I was interested.
Thank you for enlightening me
Woop Woop
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-18 01:39
Seems like an fine way for people who have way too much money to reduce their excess. I applaud Mr. Backun for his marketing savvy.
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-18 01:51
Mr.. Spiegelthal, you really should try what it is you are criticizing before you're so obnoxious.
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Author: S.H.J.
Date: 2010-02-18 03:50
Backun has been making bass bells for sometime now. They're rare though, because blocks of wood large enough to be made into a bass bell aren't common. I've seen Chuck Currie's Backun bass bell in person, and it certainly looked great. They must sound great too, since Chuck has four of them...
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Author: blazian
Date: 2010-02-18 04:28
Are there any audio samples of people using one of these bells? It may not do proper justice, but it's worth a try.
- Martin
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Author: Ed
Date: 2010-02-18 11:27
Rossi also does this. You can find pics and list of people who use them on his site.
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-18 11:33
Martin, you can find audio samples of Michael Lowenstern playing his, on his amazing website www.earspasm.com
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-18 12:38
Although I don't own one of his bells I did try them and was very impressed with the tone color it produced. The only two reasons I decided not to purchase one was that I had to send him my bell for a while and since I do not have a back up bass clarinet could not do that when he was to receive the large piece of wood necessary to make the bell. The other reason was that as an orchestra player I'm often carrying my bass and double case with me already, I decided that I didn't want to have to carry around another item since the wooden bell would not fit in my case. I decided to have both the bell and neck double gold plated instead. That worked out pretty well for me. ESP
http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: SamKaestner
Date: 2010-02-18 14:42
I own one of Morrie's bass bells. I think it does wonders for the sound of my bass. The rest of the instrument is made of wood and adding a massive piece of wood in place of the thin metal bell takes out the "buzz" that always emerges when playing long B loudly. I also feel like there is added resonance in the low register and more weight to the sound.
Sam Kaestner
West Point Band Clarinetist
www.samkaestner.com
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Author: jack
Date: 2010-02-18 16:42
I had my Buffet Bass Bell converted immiediately upon hearing a non Backun employed bass clarinet guy demonstrating back & forth at a clarinet fest 3-4 years ago. Changing back and forth between the Backun wooden bell and the stock bell made the bass clarinet, when played with the stock bell, sound like a sort of toy instrument. With the Backun Bell, the sound was much more musical, elegant, full and pleasing in every way. The conversion was done perfectly. I carry a small case for the wooden bell.
Those who pooh-pooh, the result of this enhancement have either not experienced it for themselves or are tone and timbre deaf.
The Rossi conversion bell is very rare because it requires a much larger piece of wood and is often not available. Sounds awfully good too though.
Jack
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-02-18 17:20
"With the Backun Bell, the sound was much more musical"
I fail to understand what you could possibly mean by this. . .
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-18 18:02
Mr. Patry: Thank you for your kind suggestion, but I'm perfectly capable of being obnoxious without having to try out someone's latest product.
Since you appear to react badly to sarcasm or irony, let me say this in straight prose: If you want to spend several hundred (or a thousand?) dollars to improve your bass clarinet sound, then for the same cost as a pretty wood bell you could get a couple of excellent mouthpieces from gentlemen such as Clark Fobes, Walter Grabner or Roger Garrett, and catch a few private lessons from a professional bass clarinetist. In my opinion that would make an order-of-magnitude greater improvement in your playing, for the same or less money.
On the other hand, like I said (poorly, it would seem) --- if you have the spending money, go ahead and spend it however you like.
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-18 19:22
Mr. Spiegelthal, I'm happy to take you at your word about your capabilities. My comments had nothing to do with sarcasm or irony, at least the first of which I would hope is not the appropriate tone for the bulletin board. Others on the thread have expressed their (positive) opinions about Morrie's bell and those opinions had nothing to do with it being pretty, as you disparagingly put it. Michael Lowenstern who did not comment, has also spoken very positively about the bell and uses it. No one who has used the bell has anything but positive things, musically, to say about it. Why don't you just admit you are wrong for having spoken about something you know nothing about? As Jack put it on the thread: "Those who pooh-pooh the result of this enhancement have either not experienced it for themselves or are tone and timbre deaf." Blessedly, you fall into the first category.
I appreciate the advice on the mouthpieces, but I think I am covered: Here is what I have for mouthpieces: Brad Behn, Backun, Clark Fobes, Lawrie Bloom/Walter Grabner, David McClune. Covered on lessons too, but thanks so much for your advice. No, really.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-18 20:54
Mr. Patry, there are enough world-class bass clarinetists who get a marvelous sound without using Mr. Backun's expensive (and pretty) device, that I will maintain my opinion that it is an unnecessary accessory. Furthermore, as someone who has overhauled, restored and modified dozens of bass clarinets, and built more than a half-dozen low-C extensions (three of which I currently play on regularly), I believe I have some experience with the potential audible effects of changing things down at the bell end of the bass clarinet. So no, I will not admit I'm wrong because I don't believe I'm wrong. Nobody needs a wood bell to sound good on a bass clarinet --- that is my opinion.
I don't know if you teach, but if you had a student with a budget of $X to spend on his or her equipment, what would you recommend? A good mouthpiece, or a thousand-dollar bell? We are not all made of money, sir! I have no issue with professional players (e.g. Lowenstern, Howard Klug, Ed Palanker) paying top dollar to eke out that last 0.1% improvement in their sound by any means available. My point is that the wood bell is a very cost-ineffective way to improve one's sound (if indeed it does, and I will concede that point).
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-18 21:13
I seem to remember that the Backun bass bell is more on the order of several thousand (the number 6500 comes to mind), but I could be mistaken. Perhaps a satisfied owner could clarify?
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-18 22:58
I believe his bells cost somewhere in the $2500 -$3500 range, at least that's what it was when I decided to get my bell and neck gold plated instead, for practical reasons. At the time, about 3-4 years ago, before gold hit the roof, two coats of solid gold, under coated with silver, plus insurance and shipping cost me about $800. Did it make a difference, I'm not sure, but it sure looks pretty. Actually I think it enhanced my altissimo register. I think buying something to enhance ones tone or comfort level is a very personal thing. I do agree though that for the "average" player some items are simply not worth the money. It's all a matter of affordability and personal preference. If I was a "solo" player instead of an orchestra player and could afford it I probably would have purchased a Backun Bell. Would it have made me a better player, probably not, I already love my tone, it just would have been nice to own. ESP
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Author: davetrow
Date: 2010-02-18 23:50
The placebo effect should not be underestimated. I don't mean that as a dig against the Backun bell (I'm very happy with my MOBA barrel and bell on my R13), but just that, as Ed implies, something that makes one feel better about one's horn is likely to help one play better. Whether it's worth the money or not is a very personal decision.
Dave Trowbridge
Boulder Creek, CA
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-19 00:26
Mr. Spiegelthal, yes I have been a (full-time) teacher, and an important part of teaching is answering the student's question. Here was the original question:
"I was looking through Backun’s website the other day (as you do) and came across his range of bells, which now includes Bass clarinet bells. It states on his website “These bells are designed to incorporate your current metal bell and U joint. We will solder, thread and re-plate your existing pieces- sending back the complete package. You will be able to take full advantage of both your metal and cocobolo Backun bell with a simple twist.” Has anyone actually done this and how does it work? Anyone have any photos of what the end result looks like?"
None of your answers bothered to answer that question. Instead, you first offered a dismissive comment that the bell was all marketing, then offered me unrequested and unneeded advice about my playing, and then you spoke about world class players who don't have a Backun bell. I at least answered the guy's question.
Everyone should make their own decisions what they want to do with their money, and what makes them happy. You don't want to spend the money on a Backun wooden bell even though you have never tried one; fair enough. I have tried one and I am happy I have one; fair enough too. Woop Woop will make his own decisions; but all he asked is what it looked like and how it worked.
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Author: Woop Woop
Date: 2010-02-19 00:48
Thanks Bill
Woop Woop
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2010-02-19 01:16
removed
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2010-02-19 01:26)
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Author: earspasm
Date: 2010-02-19 03:38
Hi all,
Thanks to those who have said nice things about my site and playing here...
Okay, here's a brief but hopefully useful comment/clarification about the bell, and why I use it.
The bell does add a lot to the instrument, notably a darker tone (throughout the range, but obviously more pronounced in the lowest 4 or 5 notes). That, and, about 5 extra pounds of weight. The thing is HEAVY.
Have I heard people tell me they prefer the metal bell? Yes, many. John Zorn in particular *hates* the wood bell and won't let me play it in concert with him. He likes it when I can peel paint with my sound I guess.
But what do I prefer? Well, since I do a lot with electronics, the wooden bell is my go-to choice when I'm amplifying the instrument. It makes a pronounced difference -- no brash, harsh, metallic sound comes from the amplification. Same goes when I am recording. The wooden bell makes a HUGE difference there.
I like the metal bell when I'm playing unamplified, including when I was still playing orchestral music. Though some would argue that a wood bell "projects more" I found that it didn't for me.
Regarding the flame war that's a-brewing here. Would I recommend to a student that s/he buy one? No, probably not a *student* -- nor would I recommend a neck from Blashaus. But, it falls into a category of esoterica that might afford an accomplished bass clarinet player a few extra shades of tone/timbre that can prove useful. "Bang-for-your-buck" would probably go to a good mouthpiece, a good overhaul, a good metronome, or a few boxes of reeds that actually work -- probably in that order.
Morrie, if you're reading this, I still love the bell and play it almost exclusively. I don't think I've played the metal bell in over a year -- but I'm glad I still have it.
Mike Lowenstern
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Author: donald
Date: 2010-02-19 04:17
One comment that i have heard about the metal bell in comparison to a wooden bell (from both a player, and an instrument maker) is that the metal bell tends to "reflect" the percussive sound from key noise/clacks etc more than a wooden bell. I wonder if any of the players here have noticed this?
dn
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-24 14:32
Thanks Michael for such a thorough, informative comment. As you point out, the wooden bell clearly makes a difference in the sound; its not just a marketing ploy or a pretty piece of wood (although it is that too). And, it is not necessarily the best choice for every occasion even for those who have it and love it, but this is why Morrie provides the ability to screw it off and use the metal bell when you want. What more could you want? -- the ability to quickly change your bell to fit the circumstances.
I too agree that this is not a student purchase any more than the Blashaus neck which I also have (the heavy heavy mattte) and love and think makes a very big sound difference. But just like mouthpieces, the Backun bell or the Blashaus neck may not be for everyone; some may love their metal bell and not want to switch, even as an option. I would guess the number of people who have Backun wooden bells is small, but that doesn't mean the bells don't have real benefits. Its a choice, and I don't think Morrie is out there trying to convert the world: its there, if you want to do it.
If you're a student and have a poor bass mouthpiece of course spend money getting a good one (I personally favor Brad Behn's but have others, andprice of Brad's leads into the same bang for the buck inquiry), as a well as good reeds; this bang for your buck stuff is obvious and obviously important, but it wasn't what the original question was. Woop Woop didn't say, "I'm thinking of getting a Backun wooden bell but maybe my money is better spent on a Brad Behn (or fill in your favorite) mouthpiece." He wanted to know what was up with the Backun wooden bells. I think he does know now, but it took awhile. (In response to Donald's question, yes I too think the metal bell tends to "reflect" the percussive sound from key noise/clacks etc more than the wooden bell).
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Author: RogerGarrett
Date: 2010-02-25 14:10
Hey Mike - nice to see you posting here. I remember your great visit to IWU a few years back. Not only could you "peel paint" with your metal bell, you also made it sound "normal" (maybe abnormally great!) when you taught a student the finer points of a few orchestral excerpts and worked with him on Bach.
In your case Mr. Lowenstern - your old bell sounded great! I can only imagine what you sound like with the new bell!
All the best to you and your wife!
Roger Garrett
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Author: earspasm
Date: 2010-02-25 17:47
Hey Roger --
Good to hear from you. Hope your car is still as beautiful as ever!
Mike
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Author: jack
Date: 2010-02-26 05:38
To strattle: More musical in the way a Concert Grand has more musical possibilities than an upright piano - there is more to work with in the sound, that is what it seems to me. Or think of the sound of just a mouthpiece. When you add a barrel, then 1st joint, then 2nd joint, then a bell, the sound is more musical or pleasing in each permutation. The wooden bell, imo, adds as much over the original bell as the original bell added to no bell.
Woop Woop: Yes, the wooden and metal bells can be switched in a minute or so. But not by a simple twist, more like screwing and unscrewing a light bulb. You also asked how it looks. The wooden bell is a beautiful object and somewhat smaller than the metal bell. One unusual aspect of the appearance is that the metal part of the bell, when it is mounted, is that the metal part does not extend as far down into the end of the joint as originally because it is mounted to the Backun modification. So the metal bell looks sort of like it is suspended in midair.
To David Spiegelthal: Is it only your "opinion" that the wooden bell does not improve the sound, as I suspect - or have you compared one to another? I have learned from many of your posts on many topics relating to verifiable factual matters, but in this case you seem to have an uninformed rather cavalier attitude about this. As if it must be not so, just because you believe it to be not so. Not one poster with first hand experience agrees with you. You can't fool all the people, all the time.
Toot, toot.
Jack
Post Edited (2010-02-26 06:32)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-26 11:21
To answer your question, Jack, I'm of the opinion that changes to a bass clarinet down at the bell end have very little effect on the "audience-perceived" sound of the vast majority of the range of the instrument. From a physics standpoint this is a reasonable assumption (read Benade's book) -- as long as a few toneholes above the bell tenon are open, the standing waves inside the instrument don't even reach the bell so whatever is terminating the bottom of the instrument has no effect (and can have no effect) for much of the range. Try it yourself by removing the bell completely; you can play down to at least low A with or without having a bell on the instrument and it sounds the same.
Empirically, I've swapped many (metal) bells around between brands of instruments and found little or no audible differences other than to the low chalumeau and 'long' clarion notes resulting mostly from differences in the size and location of the bell tonehole. As I mentioned, on six bass clarinets I've replaced the bell with additional tubing and toneholes to extend the range to low C; and I've found that if I do a good job (or just get lucky!) selecting the tubing diameter/ tonehole sizes and spacings/chimney heights of the extension, I can retain the tone quality and resonance of the affected notes at least as far as the audience is concerned (granted, as the player I can perceive a difference). I usually record (or obtain professional recordings of) our orchestra concerts so I can tell how I sound out in the hall.
I wasn't really being cavalier about the wood bells, I just feel strongly that they make little (if any) real difference to the sound as heard out in the hall, and their price is (to me) outrageously high. I'm cheap and being a do-it-yourselfer I can't even fathom paying more for just a bell than I would pay for two or three complete bass clarinets --- it just offends my sense of rationality and financial responsibility! But hey, if you've got the money and the wooden bell makes you feel better about your playing, I say "go for it". To each his own................
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Author: jack
Date: 2010-02-26 17:29
David, you are so darn sincere and knowledgable that it is funny (in a good way) that you won't fess up to being a trifle opinionated on this issue. Come on, we need to get empirical here. Rather than wait till you have gotten the empirical evidence of experiencing the wooden bell, you justify your opinion by saying the notion "offends your sense of rationality" and that a change to a wooden bell must have "very little effect on the audience perceived sound" of the instrument".
Your justification is "from a physics standpoint", or "I've swapped many (metal) bells" and "I feel strongly" Just try the real thing, you will be converted.
I heard an incredible difference with the Backun bell, as if it couldn't have possibly been the same clarinet. It sounded like the difference of going from a child's toy to a sublime instrument, but it was the same Buffet Bass Clarinet.
I've easily heard smaller differences in one wooden bell to another on soprano clarinets although I couldn't say that one was necessarily "better" than another. But heavier wooden bells always sound "darker" than lighter bells to me.
Hope this helps.
Jack
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-26 17:41
Jack asked this question:
"To David Spiegelthal: Is it only your "opinion" that the wooden bell does not improve the sound, as I suspect - or have you compared one to another?"
David's answer, while referring to empirical testing, referred only to testing metal bell against metal bell. No reference to testing wooden bell against metal bell. As Michael Lowenstern mentioned, John Zorn hates the sound of the wooden bell, which surely indicates that there is a difference in sound. As for the price, Morrie charges $2,500 for the conversion: what bass clarinet is it that you can get three of for $2,500?
Rationality, to me, is actually trying something, and deciding whether you like the sound, whether there is any real appreciable difference in sound, and if so whether you think the price for the difference is worthwhile. One could hate the sound (as Zorn does), think the difference slight, or think the difference in price isn't worth it; all fine positions. But I don't know how you make judgments about things you haven't tried, and that's my only point; not whether anyone should like the sound, think it a significant difference, or think the difference is worth the price. (I have by the way played the instrument without the bell to see what the sound difference is).
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-26 18:08
UNCLE!
All right, I give!
One of my points was, you could put a cardboard, or strawberry Jell-O bell down there and it shouldn't (from a physics standpoint) make an audible difference to the audience over much of the range of the instrument, as long as you play notes on the upper joint or just a few notes down on the lower joint.
True, I've never tested a metal bell against a wood bell. Mea culpa!
And yes, Bill, I've never paid more than $600 for a bass clarinet. Ever. In the last 20 years or so I've gotten nearly every instrument I own (clarinets of nearly all sizes, ditto saxes, flutes and a few oboes) from That Infernal Internet Auction Site Whose Name Shall Not Be Mentioned (TIIASWNSNBM), and whatever needed fixing or modifying, I've done the work myself. So in fact I could buy FOUR entire bass clarinets for the price of your wood bell.
Peace, y'all! ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: jack
Date: 2010-02-26 18:26
David, OK, I will trade my Backun wooden BC bell for four Buffet 1193 low C bass clarinets. Fair enough. Oh wait, please throw in a strawberry Jell-O bell. I promise not to talk about "down there" anymore.
Peace.
Jack
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-26 19:27
Jack, you've given me a marketing idea: The Strawberry Bell-O!
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Author: William
Date: 2010-02-26 20:13
"The Strawberry Bell-O!"
LOL--Make sure you charge enough so that everyone will think it is good....
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Author: Bill Patry
Date: 2010-02-26 23:21
And I confess too: I spend too much on things which my meager skills do not justify and which I probably cannot hear very well either, even though pathetically I have graduate and undergraduate degrees in music. My obsession with pretty things is the curse of the talentless and those who are unmechanical, categories I readily put myself in. But I have never liked Jello. Who wants to eat ground up horse hooves?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2010-02-27 00:17
Hey David - you know me I'll buy anything backed by your extensive physics background. I guess that I do not need to jump off the cliff to know that terminal velocity will break my neck at the bottom. Jello should give a smooth and luscious tone.
L. Omar Henderson
www.doctorsprod.com
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2010-02-27 02:33
And it's worth remembering, Dr. Omar, that should you (in a moment of irrationality) jump off that cliff anyway, while playing your bass clarinet with the Strawberry Bell-O, your landing will be cushioned by the springy Bell-O and you may actually survive the fall! Another good reason to buy one. Better than an airbag, and tastier too! Besides the smooth and luscious tone.
As for you, Bill, please don't hold it against my Strawberry Bell-O that it's made of ground-up horse hooves and frozen strawberry concentrate. You shouldn't criticize a product until you've actually tried it.
Methinks we're getting very silly and that Mark or GBK (or both) are preparing to pull the plug on this thread.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-02-27 15:25
FOR WHOM THE BELL TOLLS!
Be it metal, wood, gold plated or "Strawberry" ESP
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Author: William
Date: 2010-02-28 01:55
William S said it best, "To bell, or not to bell, that was the question"....or something like that.
"For Whom the Bell Tolls?"--the bell tolls for thee........Ernie H
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