 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-01-13 15:52
Personally, I think they are better on the viola. I find it quite painful to listen to a clarinetist perform these works-and I have yet to hear a recording of these pieces that I like, EXCEPT WHEN THEY ARE DONE ON THE VIOLA!
I also find these pieces to be by far the most difficult chamber music in the clarinet catalog. I was asked to play the Eb with a pianist this summer- I said "no thanks, lets do Poulenc, Schumann, Muczynski, ANYTHING BUT THE BRAHMS!"
I have my theories as to why they do not work on the clarinet (I do think they are beautiful pieces-just not on the clarinet).
Was wondering what everyone else thinks about opus 120.
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-01-13 16:01
Oh no Salzo!
What have you done? What have you done.?..............................!!
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-01-13 16:14
graham- I know it is sacrilege to say the Brahms is better on viola- But I am not kidding, I really do prefer them on the viola, and I have not EVER heard a clarinetist play those well, and I have heard a few really great players thumb their way through them.
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-13 17:04
Brahms preferred the clarinet version:
"I fear I find these two works quite awkward and unpleasant as viola sonatas."
-- Johannes Brahms, letter to Joseph Joachim, October 17, 1894
What is more interesting, though, is to know WHY someone prefers one over the other. For instance, what is it about the viola version that makes you prefer it to the original? And why do you find these pieces so difficult?
I prefer the clarinet version, myself. The viola just isn't capable of producing the same kind of dynamic range, richness or "sweetness" of sound, or brilliance in the upper register. For instance, notice that Brahms, in rewriting the piece for viola, took a lot of passages down an octave, ostensibly to try to achieve a richer sound, which is harder to do up high on the viola (where you get kind of a nasal sound) than on the clarinet.
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2010-01-13 17:11
Fwiw (I'm an amateur), the Brahms sonatas and the Brahms clarinet quintet are my three favorite chamber works for clarinet. I don't know what your definition of playing "well" might be, but have you heard Jonathan Cohler's recordings of the sonatas, with pianist Judith Gordon on No. 1 and Randall Hodgkinson on No. 2? (My copy is from BBC Magazine, Vol. III No. 2.) I think those are outstanding recordings.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-01-13 17:41
I agree Jonathan Cohler's version is great specially the Eb sonata. I also like George Pieterson's version with Hepzibah Menuhin and Einar Jóhannesson's(solo clarinetist in the Icelandic symphony) version with Martin Berkofsky(From Belarus but lived in Iceland in the 80's and had a seriously motorcycle accident in 82)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2010-01-13 17:51
99% of the time, they are played badly, imho. Those pieces are darn hard to make interesting, and if you ever just "go through the motions" for more than a few seconds, the piece is lost. On a good day, I can get through about the first half of the first movement of #2 without falling into extreme blah-ness.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2010-01-13 18:50
I heard a very nice performance of one of the sonatas last year in a live concert with the Detroit Chamner Winds and Strings, featuring Larry Liberson on clarinet. I couldn't anything about his performance...it was spot on and very muscial.
Jeff
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-13 19:33
Each too their own. I think one problem is that so many players perform it on the boring side, not enough color change or excitement, too straight forward. It needs to be more romantic than many people perform it. That's not to say that it should be over done the way Stolzman plays it . By the way, I've recently read that Brahms actually wrote it for the viola first and than wrote it for the clarinet. I'm sure that will be challenged and I can't remember where I read it. I always thought it was written for the clarinet first too. If you have doubt's perhaps you can google it before questioning what I said. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
PS. I am NOT stating that as a fact, only that I read it someplace, surprised me too.
The author is Heinz von
Beckerath and it is translated by Josef Eisinger. Princeton
University Press, 2009. The title is Brahms and His World,
Remembering Johannes Brahms, or Brahms and His Krefeld Friends
depending on which page I look at.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-15 02:25)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-13 19:49
GBK wrote:
<<That may not be the entire reason.
Read pages 19 -26:>>
Thanks for the link. That's interesting. I didn't realize viola technique was so limited in those days.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2010-01-13 20:01
FWIW, I think these pieces come off better for the clarinet in live performance than they do in recordings. There are without doubt places that are technically treacherous, even though the notes themselves mostly lie (sometimes deceptively) easily. When the electronics pick up and even exaggerate some of the mechanical awkwardness that clarinetists work so hard to minimize, the aural result can distract from the music. A player performing in any kind of decent hall benefits from the smoothing effects of the hall's acoustic ambiance and, in my experience hearing live performances of the sonatas, they come off as being very effective on clarinet.
Karl
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2010-01-13 20:31
This post touches a very personal internal struggle of mine. Naturally I like what the clarinet does within the context of music as a whole but I have never actually enjoyed the sound of clarinet all by itself...... to include my practice sessions !!!!
Strings have a much richer color palette because of the overtone seriess to which they have access as well as a more often used vibrato.
The first time I heard the Brahms First Sonata on viola, my gut reaction was, "Oh, NOW that makes sense!" Up to that piont I can't even say I was much of a fan of that music (the Quintet and the Trio have always been sancrosanct mind you). Since this period in my life I have grown to appreciate what Brahms had in mind in the Sonatas but I still think they may make more sense in a string setting.
It's very hard for me to say, but there are some extra limitations placed on the clarinet (not the least of which is only being able to play one note at a time) by its sonic signature. There is nothing like a clarinet poking out of a full orchestral texture to tweak the listener, but as a stand alone voice (much as the part in the sonata suggests) the clarinet may not have what it takes.............in many cases.
...................Paul Aviles
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-01-13 20:57
Ed wrote: "I've recently read that Brahms actually wrote it for the viola first and than wrote it for the clarinet. I'm sure that will be challenged and I can't remember where I read it. I always thought it was written for the clarinet first too. If you have doubt's perhaps you can google it before questioning what I said"
Maybe you should try to remember your source before spreading such ludicrous misinformation?
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2010-01-13 21:58
Richard Mühlfeld, the clarinetist who inspired Brahms in this late period of life, was also a violinist. From written accounts Mühlfeld played clarinet with vibrato and a very smooth vocal like technique, perhaps greatly influence by his own approach to violin. It was likely this quality in Mühlfeld's playing that attracted Brahms, and also changed how he composed for the instrument. Compared to other compositions and orchestrations for Clarinet up to this point, these works are not what I would call Clarinet friendly. They do look like they were written for a stringed instrument, not a wind instrument.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-13 22:21
Well Liq, I will look into the source that I read it in, I'm thinking it was something one of our librarians showed me. In any case I don't think it should be considered ludicrous misinformation because I did not state it as a fact, I said I read it somewhere. I also suggested you google it before questioning it, did you? Do you believe everything you read? I did not say it was a fact. Let's not forget, Brahms was himself a violist as well as a pianist. Whenever he played chamber music he preferred to play the viola when not playing the piano. It's not so far fetched but I will investigate it for you. ESP
PS. I just e-mailed our librarian and asked him if he could give me the source. I did google it myself and everything I found says he wrote it for clarinet first. It would be interesting if it was actually written for the viola first but again, I am not stating that as a fact. Who's to say that the source I read it in is more or less accurate than any place else?
The author is Heinz von
Beckerath and it is translated by Josef Eisinger. Princeton
University Press, 2009. The title is Brahms and His World,
Remembering Johannes Brahms, or Brahms and His Krefeld Friends
depending on which page I look at.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-15 02:25)
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2010-01-13 22:21
That' why I've heard professional clarinetist say that we(clarinetists) must hear violist play it so we know how to play it beautifully with appropriate legato technic.
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Author: FDF
Date: 2010-01-13 23:12
Well, I do think Ed got one thing right, "To each their own." Just as a reminder, I played over the Brahms today, not well, but certainly enjoyable for me trying to express the beauty of the composition. If you think Brahms' clarinet compositions sound better on a viola, then they do. I like them just fine played on the clarinet.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2010-01-13 23:22
Liquorice makes a good point Ed. I frankly don't believe that.
In the preface to the Vienna Urtext Edition of the two Sonatas is written, and I quote:
"The two Clarinet Sonatas Op. 120, ... were composed by Brahms strictly for his own pleasure... He mentioned his new pieces to Muhlfeld indirectly in September 1894, when he asked him to come to Berchtesgaden and bring along his B-flat clarinet. In the spring of 1895 the Sonatas were published by N. Simrock, Berlin, together with an arrangement of the clarinet part for viola. Brahms also made a violin-piano arrangement of the Sonatas, which were published separately."
This I tend to believe, it suggests the viola part came second possibly to boost sales. In Clara Schumann's diary she mentions turning pages at the first play through so again one can consider the possibility that Brahms intended them for the clarinet or else he would have gotten a viola player to play through with him.
Understanding both versions will help with the overall mastery of these great Sonatas
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2010-01-13 23:57)
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Author: srattle
Date: 2010-01-13 23:25
GBK:
That's a very interesting article. I enjoyed the read, thanks!
I find personally that the Sonatas sound better to me without too much flamboyance. This is why I tend to stay away from the Viola version, as I think the vibrato and (often) excessive use of portamento is unnecessary and takes away from the pureness of the composition.
I really enjoy how lonely the pieces are on the clarinet, and the viola is a bit too exciting for me (at least I haven't heard a performance of it on viola that I find truly convincing)
Remember that Brahms wrote these only 3 years before he died, and he must have still been pining after Clara still then. I think there is supposed to be a lot of loneliness in the pieces.
It is of course 'to each his own' but I would like to hear from those who prefer the viola versions, exactly what aspect of it do you prefer, and why.
Also, I would love to hear of a really great recording of them on Viola.
My vote for a recording of the sonatas on clarinet would be with Karl-Heinz Steffens with Michael Frielander (and Ludwig Quandt on the trio)
It's a very simple, but perfectly clear, and honest interpretation that I think really shows of these masterpieces
http://www.amazon.com/Brahms-Klarinettentrio-Op-114-Klarinettensonaten/dp/B0006TN8PO
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-13 23:35
Peter, I do believe you are right. Every other source I have found also states that it was written for the clarinet first. It was, and still is, my belief that Brahms wrote them for Muhlfeld first so I should have stated my comment differently. I should have also traced my source before writing it but even if I did, and I still hope to find it and list it here, that doesn't mean that the author of that is correct. I was only tying to say that someone out there believes it was the other way around. Please forgive me for any confusion I may have caused in the greater clarinet world. Let's blame it on my third glass of wine, and now for a fourth. ESP
PS. The author is Heinz von
Beckerath and it is translated by Josef Eisinger. Princeton
University Press, 2009. The title is Brahms and His World,
Remembering Johannes Brahms, or Brahms and His Krefeld Friends
depending on which page I look at.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-15 02:26)
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-14 00:46
griffinity wrote:
<< From written accounts Mühlfeld played clarinet with vibrato and a very smooth vocal like technique, perhaps greatly influence by his own approach to violin. It was likely this quality in Mühlfeld's playing that attracted Brahms, and also changed how he composed for the instrument.>>
The only "account" of Muhlfeld using vibrato that I am aware of was a reference in Jack Brymer's book, "Clarinet," to an unnamed (presumably oral) source recalling a performance of the Brahms Quintet with Muhlfeld in which he remembered Muhlfeld using vibrato. It is not clear, however, whether the source (whoever he was) meant that Muhlfeld used vibrato throughout his playing, or just in the particular section (the "Gypsy section") of the piece he had just referred to. Vibrato was used rather sparingly in those days, even by violinists.
As far as I can see, the idea that Muhlfeld typically played with a continuous vibrato like present-day string players and that this vibrato-infused sound was what inspired Brahms to write his clarinet pieces is little more than wishful thinking on the part of certain clarinetists, most notably Jonathan Cohler, who have an interest in promoting their own liberal use of vibrato. At best, it's an anachronism, because, as I noted, violinists of Brahms' era (including his friend Joachim, of whom there are recordings posted on YouTube) used vibrato very sparingly, if at all.
Cohler and I talked about this not too long ago on the Klarinet list. Needless to say, he didn't take it very well that I was skeptical of his point of view, as promoted in his recent album liner notes (Brahms Trio recording). The "discussion" devolved very quickly into silly word games, but you can see the "alternative hypothesis" I was trying to present from the following posts.
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2009/10/000136.txt
http://test.woodwind.org/Databases/Klarinet/2009/10/000142.txt
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-01-14 03:06
A lot of great opinions and scholarship.
One of the problems I think that clarinetists have interpreting this piece, is that they really do not understand the Sonata of the classical period. Brahms was essentially a classical composer. His use of structure and form are classical, the "romantic" element of Brahms music lies within the harmony. Personally, i think these pieces should be done more in the style of mozart and Beethoven, certainly not Rachmaninov. The use of rubato beyond what one might use in Mozart, lack of attention to bar lines, form, marks of espression, causes the piece to meander without purpose, direction, basically lots of lines of music and notes that are not connected to each other in any way. Unlike string players, clarinetists are inexperienced with respect to playing sonatas of the classical period. It is not our fault, there were'nt any sonatas around before Brahms. As the dissertation link that was posted points out, the big clarinet piano piece that came before brahms was the Weber gran duo concertant. And lets be for real; the Weber isnt exactly the greatest piece of music, and certainly is not enough of a preliminary piece for studying the brahms.
String players on the other hand have hundreds of years of Sonatas that they play that preceded Brahms. Beethoven, Mozart, haydn, handel, bach, and on and on and on. They play a lot of early sonatas before they play Brahms. Where does the clarinet begin- WITH BRAHMS! The most cerebral composer of the form. When I teach my kids to swim, I dont take them out in the ocean during a hurricane.
And because clarinetist do not have the experience, or understanding of the sonata. they rely solely on emotion- "Mulenfeld, Brahms loved clara, his last work, brought him out of retirement, somber, autumn, blah blah blah.
Instead of spending time reading all of that stuff, they would be better off playing a few Mozart and Beethoven sonatas.
My favorite recording of the Sonatas is Walter Trampler and Vladmir Horshevski (sic). Trampler does it very "straight", and it is marvelous. He does not miss a mark, he does not sap it up with tempo changes, rubato. He plays the "Allegro Appassionato", allegro appassionato. And even with all of this attention to marks, structure, etc, it is wonderfully expressive. It doesnt sound to me like those marks are shackles for Walter, those marks are there to help him make beautiful music.
Even the other chamber works of brahms, I feel clarinetists dont quite get it, but it isnt as bad because the clarinet is not as exposed as it is in the sonatas. I have heard a few recordings and performances of the trio hat I like (Cioffi, Eban, McLane, Gigliotti, and others), but the quintet is another story. While there are some recordings that i think the clarinetist sounds "pretty", I cant fall in love with the interpretation(or lack thereof).
There is one recording of the quintet that I think is phenomenal- George Silfies-my gosh he is some musician. Not just the clarinet stuff. His attention to detail is amazing on that recording, no one else compares. I wish he would record the Sonatas.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2010-01-14 03:34
salzo wrote:
> There is one recording of the quintet that I think is
> phenomenal- George Silfies-my gosh he is some musician. Not
> just the clarinet stuff. His attention to detail is amazing on
> that recording, no one else compares.
No surprise.
George Silfies was also a very fine pianist. At one time he was the pianist for the Cleveland Orchestra. He was equally talented on clarinet and piano.
...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-01-14 06:17
Dear Ed,
With all due respect, if I wrote (after my 3rd glass of wine) that:
"I read somewhere that Mozart actually originally wrote K.622 for cello. I can't remember where I read it. I always thought it was written for the clarinet first too. If you have doubt's perhaps you can google it before questioning what I said"
Would you honestly bother googling it? So much has been written regarding the historical meeting of Brahms and Mühlfeld, backed up by historical evidence. If you're going to come up with some weird theory then I think the onus lies with you to come up with your source.
Hope it was a good bottle :-)
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Author: graham
Date: 2010-01-14 07:18
I only ever encounter the viola version when I switch on the radio and find it is playing (which happens with astonishing frequency on BBC Radio 3, and which they seem always to prefer to a clarinet version). On those occasions my immediate reaction is "that sounds good". But why shouldn't it? There is little evidence in these pieces that Brahms sought to exploit a particular aspect of the clarinet as an instrument (except those things that a viola equally would be able to deliver) or to make references to styles of music that might have connotations with the listener as being "wind music" in style. That leaves little room for a good adaptation for viola failing to make the musical point. This is absolute music. Just like Bach composing for keyboard (irrespective of what variety) this Brahms could within reason be adapted to several instruments without losing point.
But the clarinet versions work well too. One approach that might assist the sceptical listener would be for the piano to be allowed to dominate the mix. That happens in Klocker's recording. It is restrained and subtle, but the balance, though unconventional, seems to me to deliver something special. Or try Hacker and Burnett for a no compromise dramatic rendition complete with harsh tone where Hacker feels harsh tone is called for. Both these accounts use original instruments.
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2010-01-14 13:42
There is one recording of the quintet that I think is
> phenomenal- George Silfies-my gosh he is some musician. Not
> just the clarinet stuff. His attention to detail is amazing on
> that recording, no one else compares.
That recording of the Brahms is why I chose to study with George in graduate school. The first time I heard it was on the radio and I had one of those "driveway moments". I couldn't get out of the car until it was over.
As GBK mentioned, George is a pianist (not someone who plays the piano a little) and I think it's safe to say that his piano background informs his interpretations and understanding of the pieces he performs. Clarinet lessons with him often turned into impromptu lessons on theory and form. More so than others I studied with, George was insistent that you not only play the clarinet part well but that you understood the composition and the clarinet's place within the composition.
Having the chance to study the sonatas with George and to have him coach the quintet were definitely among the high points of my education ( though not quite as fun as when he would play the snare drum solos in the Nielsen concerto with pencils).
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-14 16:16
Hey Liq, I've already admitted my mistake, I should have provided the author before writting it. I've also agreed that I don't really believe what he said about it being written for the viola first. It's not a weird theory, it was something I read. It is NOT my theory. I did google too, as I've already stated, and could not find anything to back up his statement but I've already said too that I am trying to trace the author. I've asked the person that showed it to me to get back to me with the name of the book/article and author. I was joking about the wine, just trying to lighten this up a bit, and have all ready admitted my mistake, several times I believe. As soon as I find out who wrote the article/book, I will let everyone know. Hey, I made a mistake OK. So like some others, I am not perfect, even though I tell my wife I am. (She doesn't believe me either). ESP
PS. The author is Heinz von
Beckerath and it is translated by Josef Eisinger. Princeton
University Press, 2009. The title is Brahms and His World,
Remembering Johannes Brahms, or Brahms and His Krefeld Friends
depending on which page I look at.
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-15 02:27)
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Author: salzo
Date: 2010-01-14 16:32
Tonkatoy-
Do you have that "Vox Box" 3 cd set of chamber music for winds with St. Louis symphony members?
That is a killer. George playing, the Mozart and Brahms quintets, Mozart trio, and the Beethoven and Mozart piano wind quintets. They all are great recordings, but the Brahms Quintet, and Mozart piano/wind quintet are especially great.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2010-01-14 18:46
I can't stand the Brahms clarinet sonatas played on viola. I tried listening to them played on the viola twice, and it's clear they are clarinet pieces, Brahms most passionate moments in those sonatas simply cannot be portrayed adequately on a a string instrument.
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2010-01-14 21:07
OK Ed, I think you've apologised enough to absolve yourself :-)
If you do find anything to substantiate this weird viola conspiracy theory, then please let us know...
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2010-01-15 00:11
One of the worst days of my life occurred while I was first working on the Brahms sonatas, I'd just had a lesson on the No. 2 from Lee Livengood in Salt Lake City. I was driving south and crossed the border between Colorado and New Mexico, coming into reception range of the PBS station in Albuquerque, NM -only to be assaulted by the blasphemy of someone "pirating" this sublime part of the clarinet repertoire on a big fat fiddle.
I believe that this particular performance was a bad one; but (to each his/er own --up to a point), I've never met an Opus 120 fiddler that I could love.
One of the funniest things in my life occurred a few weeks later when I encountered a young woman in a youTube video playing the Brahms on a French Horn. Shudder.
For years, I've had the Saint-Saens Introduction and Rondo Capriccioso for violin in my music library waiting to be transcribed for clarinet; but I've always felt too guilty about this theft to actually commit it.
No, I'd be happier if the threat of having to be exposed to a fiddle version of Brahms Op. 120 was not lurking out there in some broadcaster's music library.
SHUDDER
Bob Phillips
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-15 02:23
I got it!
The author is Heinz von
Beckerath and it is translated by Josef Eisinger. Princeton
University Press, 2009. The title is Brahms and His World,
Remembering Johannes Brahms, or Brahms and His Krefeld Friends
depending on which page I look at.
So at least you know I didn't make it up. Now I'm going to have another glass of wine. ESP
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2010-01-15 02:29)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2010-01-15 02:35
My the way Salzo, the reason some pianist shy away from the Brahms sonatas is because the piano parts are much more difficult to play than the clarinet part is. They are both extremely difficult for the pianist, not that they're easy for the clarinetist but note wise, no comparison. ESP
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Author: mrn
Date: 2010-01-15 05:04
It's possible Heinz von Beckerath wrote whatever he did because his first exposure to the Brahms Sonatas was in the viola version. His father, Alwin von Beckarath, was an accomplished violist and a friend of Brahms. (See Michael Musgrave, "A Brahms Reader," Yale Univ. Press, 2000, p. 197) Heinz von Beckerath was a teenager when Brahms wrote the Sonatas.
So perhaps Heinz von Beckerath remembered these pieces as being viola pieces originally because he likely first heard them as viola pieces (played by his father).
Just goes to show you (and we lawyers see this kind of thing a lot), eyewitnesses don't always give you the most reliable information. Often, much of what people report from personal experience consists not of their actual observations, but their internal interpretations or explanations of what they have experienced, which may or may not comport with reality. That's probably what happened here.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2010-01-22 15:35
Has anyone heard Emmanuel Pahud's recording of the op 120 sonatas on the flute? I like it; the range is not so different from the clarinet's (although it obviously can't get down some places) and he plays very musically. I guess it matters most not what instrument you have, but what you do with it.
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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