 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Karen
Date: 2000-11-29 15:29
Greetings all. I found this site recently, but haven't posted as of yet. What I need is some advice on what to do about my old clarinet. It is a Leblanc L7 that was purchased new when I was in the 9th grade (for the grand sum then of $350), played seriously through college, and has seen little playing time ever since. After my son took up the clarinet last year (using his grandfather's instrument) I had the Leblanc overhauled. One of its problems was after all the humidity changes it has endured (living on both coasts and now in arid Colorado), all the tenon rings were loose. The repair tech who did the overhaul glued the rings back on. That held for 6 months, but now the rings are loose again. Should I take it back to the same repair tech and have them glued on again, or is there something else that needs to be done? The instrument still plays fine and has no cracks. Although I play it occasionally, I'd really like to get it in top shape for when my son is in high school. Thanks for your help!
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Author: Jeff Gegner
Date: 2000-11-29 16:42
Have you tried humidifying the case. I have an old instrument care card from Carl Fischer Musical Instrument Co., INC. New York. It says "If the rings are loose, it means that your Clarinet has shrunk. The instrument will return to normal when played. Do no assemble if the rings are loose, as you might crack a joint. It is better to a draw a dampened rag through the Clarinet and let the wood expand to normal. DO NOT wet excessively".
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-11-29 17:26
I recently have been studying this issue & have read both the SASKA & BRAND manuals on point.
This is the time of year, where depending upon your locale, you may experience some shrinkage in wood --- loss of moisture. I have a room size humidifier in our music room where we keep our clarinets, & also have a "home-made humidifier" in each case, a small pill or aspirin bottles (punching holes through a locking top) & use a special sponge sheets (an art supply - dry sponge). I cut the sponge to size & fit it inside the small bottle. Add water (& after experimenting with sizing the dry sponge) & you have a perfect fit. Add water every so often & its a perfect case humidifier.
If the problem persists ... a shim (usually paper material ) may be used to tighten the ring. There is a set procedure for this, so that the shim slides with the ring into proper position.
Also, rings may be tightened by a repair person skilled in this procedure & with the proper tool (I have heard of ring machines, too).
SASKA says (specifically) that the use of GLUE ONLY is a NO-NO. Obviously, whatever was done before didn't do the trick, beacuse you are back to square one.
This is NOT a big deal & you can get the rings fixed, probably, once & for all. No doubt our experts will answer soon, too!
Good luck.
mw
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-11-29 17:28
Karen;
Gluing tenon rings is a quick, temporary fix. The proper method is to shrink them. This is done using a piece of equipment designed for the purpose. It's an expensive little gadget so your favorite tech may not have one or (my guess), may not know how to use one. Remember, it takes a good bit of experience (practice) as well as 'know how' to do the job right - even with the right tool(s).
If you take it back to the same shop and they suggest re-gluing, I'd take it to a different shop. Tell them what you want, the tenon rings tightened, then ask how they plan to do it. If glue is recommended, forget it. You can do as good a job yourself - *better* in fact - without glue buildup that'll eventually have to be cleaned out anyway if you decide to have the job done right.
The 'do-it-yourself' method? - shim the ring(s) with thin paper. You may discover at this point that you need to clean off that old glue. If that's the case, and you don't feel confident about it, please re-post here for suggestions for removing it. Otherwise, 'onion skin' paper or tissue paper both work pretty well. I've never tried plastic, like SaranWrap or ?, but I don't know that it *wouldn't* work. Trim the excess that may be sticking out when you're done so it'll look neat.
ron b
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Author: drew
Date: 2000-11-29 18:15
Loose tenon rings can be very serious; the rings reinforce the very thin wood present at the tenon. When the rings are loose they aren't doing the job they were designed for, and you run a much greater risk of cracking the wood, a bad thing.
As has been mentioned above, gluing then rings does not address the problem satisfactorily. Get thee to a qualified tech who will rehydrate the instrument and/or shrink the rings, preferably both.
I had Judd at IMS do this for my old Paul Renne student instrument during an overhaul, now all the rings are good'n'tight.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-11-29 18:24
As Ron B and others have said, we are into the "dry clarinet" season so humidifying our good woods is recommended, for both tenon and socket rings staying tight. I have a few plastic humidifiers, but use a wad of paper towel dampened lightly in my bell as that's my worst problem. To tighten other socket rings, I just cut a strip of newspaper, wrap the wood end and replace the ring. Works well for me!! Don
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Author: Joe Spencer
Date: 2000-11-29 20:07
Peter Spriggs (a sponsor) sells a very nice little booklet on clarinet care in which he recommends using a black plastic garbage bag to tighten loose rings. Strong, resilient material, and if not trimmed perfectly will not show as much as paper.
Joe
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Author: Karen
Date: 2000-11-30 03:42
Thanks for your responses. Now I have a few more questions. Don Berger mentions using a wad of damp paper towel in the case to humidify the instrument. How long should one try that before expecting to see some result? Drew mentioned having a tech rehydrate the instrument. How is that done? A few folks mentioned having the rings adjusted. One concern I have with that is what happens to the instrument if I move back to a more humid climate and the wood swells again? Would that be bad? And finally, in the area I'm in, the selection of qualified technicians is pretty limited. However, I can fairly easily get to the Denver metropolitan area. Can someone recommend a good clarinet repair person there?
Cheers,
Karen
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-11-30 04:25
I agree with Drew about the cracking. I would be very reluctant to assemble the horn until the rings are good and tight. The male tenon applies outward pressure on the female tenon and if the ring is not tight, the wood can start cracking from this pressure. If its an old horn, it probably wouldn't hurt to get the bore oiled too.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-11-30 12:03
1. Now please, being totally logical and sensible, what on earth is wrong with glueing them, say with hot melt shellac - as long as you fill the entire gap up so that the thin timber is supported aginst splitting. Shrinking the rings does exactly the same thing except that the gap is filled with ring metal instead of shellac. If the shellac did not support just as well as the metal then it would have to ooze out when the timber expanded, which it does not.
2. With ring shrinking there is a risk of over-shrinking, making the tenon timber jam. I have frequently found tenon sockets to be non-cylindrical for this reason. Then someone adjusts the tenon timber diameter so that they don't jam, and this makes the END of the tenon loose when it is fully in the socket, which makes the joint wobble. Then a very expensive 'capping' fix is required after machining the socket parallel again.
3. If rings are installed and then later the clarinet is returned to a humid climate the tenon socket will expand again except where the ring is, resulting in the non-parralel-socket, wobbly joint syndrome described above. If shellac is used at least you could remove the ring to ease the tension in the timber, then replace the ring with less glue.
4. There is probably nothing wrong with the job the techo did. The clarinet has just shrunk more since he did the job.
5. If you get the humidity in the case constantly too high with the watery environment suggested you will be inviting the pads to go mouldy. I've seen this many times, especially when damp 'pad savers' (i.e. pad wreckers!) are left inside the clarinet. The pad saver restricts air movement which also contributes to mould formation.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-11-30 21:39
Another day, another two cents worth of... 
In a previous post I proposed that, when tightening rings, it is essential that the person doing the job NOT overdo it - which is a *definite* possibility if it's done by an unskilled person. They're out there.
Ring metal (malleable sterling silver) is way harder than shellac. Shellac, when hard (cool), will flake and chip under stress; not a good choice for gluing tenon rings. A better choice, again my opinion, would be glue gun glue which has a bit more 'give' to it. Neither adhesive, in my meager experience, has the support strength necessary to substitute for a tenon ring (or end cap) in direct contact with wood.
Wood will not swell enough to be damaged if the ring metal alone is a snug (not a *tight*) fit. Conversely, the ring will not fall off when the wood shrinks if the metal is a snug fit. Metal also expands and contracts.
I recall that Dee posted some in-depth information about instrument materials' (plastic, wood, metal) expansion/contraction characteristics some time back. As I remember, the differences are measured in *thousandths* of an inch; not enough, in everyday life, to be very concerned about. I mean, wood 'breathes' and plastics and metals expand and contract according to temperature and moisture conditions BUT, nothing on the magnitude of a balloon. We're talking about itty-bitty mico conditions.
It matters little in the short term, Karen, whether you glue, shim or squeeze your tenon rings ( ! ) :] These are all viable options. It's your choice.
Leblancs generally are pretty nice horns, by the way.
ron b
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-11-30 22:33
ron b wrote:
>
> ...I recall that Dee posted some in-depth information about
> instrument materials' (plastic, wood, metal)
> expansion/contraction characteristics some time back. As I
> remember, the differences are measured in *thousandths* of an
> inch; not enough, in everyday life, to be very concerned about.
> I mean, wood 'breathes' and plastics and metals expand and
> contract according to temperature and moisture conditions BUT,
> nothing on the magnitude of a balloon. We're talking about
> itty-bitty mico conditions.
That was only applicable to temperature induced changes. It is not relevant to changes induced by humidity changes. This is a totally different phenomenon.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-01 00:06
I Agree, Dee. and besides a thou or trwo is enough to make a tenon ring quite loose.
In response to Ron:
1. The ring tightening press compresses in only one direction at a time. Therefore the ring will be slightly oval after being compressed. There are ways of reducing this effect. This is not an ideal situation and a glue/fiiller should still be used to take up any gaps caused by this non-roundness, even if the ring feels firm.
2. Tenon socket ring metal is almost always nickel silver (cupronickel), containing NO silver, or brass.
3. Shellac that is BETWEEN significant sized surfaces, and only, as you say, a few thou thick CANNOT 'flake or chip'.
4. A very thin layer of shellac will transfer almost ALL pressure direct to the ring.
5. I have glued many tenon socket rings over many years and never had a split, so why go for the far more expensive ring compression overkill.
6. "Wood will not swell enough to be damaged if the ring metal alone is a snug (not a *tight*) fit. Conversely, the ring will not fall off when the wood shrinks if the metal is a snug fit." You simply can't have it both ways!
7. "Metal also expands and contracts." The expansion and contraction of the METAL with temperature change is so minute that it is toally irrelevant in this discussion and misleading. The only relevant dimensional changes are the timber as the moisture content changes (or body plastic with extreme temnperature hanges).
8. "*thousandths* of an inch; not enough, in everyday life, to be very concerned about". Thousandths of an inch are relevavt to almost every aspect of clarinet manufacture and adjustment. Even for pad seating is done to this acccuracy, by detecting changes in pressure on a feeler which is only 1 thou thick.
9. It IS INDEED the "itty-bitty mico conditions" that make a ring loose.
A good feature of shellac is that it is reasonably good at adhering to a slightly oily surface. I see it as the easiest and preferable option, but this does not include the liquid shellac preparations, which cannot gap-fill well because they are mainly solvent
"
2. Because shellac has much highter compressive strength than glue gun glue, and therefore will give much more support. However the fact that the glue gun glue has more give would mean that the ring stays on if the timber shrinks further.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-12-01 01:02
Dee -
Oops.
I didn't mean to misquote you. Obviously, I did. I'm glad you caught me at it and I apologize.
It brings to mind another question though. How much is clarinet wood affected (expansion-contraction wise), by humidity changes? Wouldn't temperature *and* humidity have to be considered simultaneously, proportionally relative to one another or... or, or something like that? Maybe not. Clarinet wood is 'usually' pretty dense stuff. How much water can it soak up? Then, if it has had oil applied to it and all that... we could go on and on. And disagree if we want but . . .
well... now ... take your average Cadillac....... ( :o )~~~~~~~~
ron b
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Author: Karen
Date: 2000-12-01 06:01
To Ron:
The difference in size between the inner diameter of my barrel ring and the wood is currently 1mm. The relative humidity when I had it originally repaired was around 50-60%, in the indoor heated wintertime air here in Colorado, it's probably of order 5%. (Sorry, I don't have the table here at home to convert that to specific humidity.) Temperature (of the air) affects how much moisture the air can hold, but (at least for typical earth surface temperatures) shouldn't cause significant thermal expansion or contraction of wood.
Anyway, for the time being, I've shimmed the rings with paper, am trying to either play it myself or have my son use it every few days, and am storing it in the most humid room in the house (next to the shower). I'll probably take it back to the same repair technician if things don't improve in the next month or so. I'll also try the aspirin bottle with water in it idea for the case. I'm not too worried about mold here...it's just too dry to sustain much. Dust is a lot bigger problem!
Thanks!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2000-12-01 08:51
Gordon;
I'll go along with most of what you say. I was thinking of shrink bands when I wrote that they're sterling. You're correct about tenon rings being nickle silver. Your other statements have a lot of merit too. That's how I (we?) learn things.
I do know for a fact though, that rings compressed by a skillful technician will not be out of round. They're squeezed several times, at different positions, to avoid that. And, I never thought of it as overkill until now.
Otherwise, thanks for a very informative post
I tried using liquid shellac too... :[
ron b
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-01 14:04
Karen: 1mm difference in diameter! That's huge. All the more reason not to do a permanent ring compression if there is any chance of the instrument being returned to higher humidity. Item 3 of my 30.11 post would become a very significant issue. Any difference greater than 0.1 mm diameter can constitute a wobbly tenon problem.
Ron: Yes your last paragraph is correct, but I'm not sure how shrinkings subsequent to the first match the first when there is not too much control over the depth of indentations occurring in the shims used, especially with 'ridgy' rings.
That liquid shellac is horrid stuff. I cannot think of any valid use for it.
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Author: mw
Date: 2000-12-02 04:21
Gordon, is there a brand of shellac stick that you prefer? Thanks. mw
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2000-12-02 06:47
I don't think the source makes much difference.
I use the opaque egg-shell white rectangular one for pads, mainly because the colour matches.
I have a perception (perhaps eroneous) that the light gold transluent one is extra brilltle so I don't use it.
The black one seems to bubble too much for reliable use as a filler.
That leaves the translucent (almost opaque) amber one.
By the way I have been thinking that if I met a gap of 1 mm (was that radius or diameter?) I would probably consider using some sort of packing material too - perhaps a binding of linen thread - in conjunction with the shellac to fill the gaps...... even if just to easily get the ring asthetically concentric with the timber.
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