 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-12-21 19:25
Lately, the humidity has dropped where I live in the North of Norway. This is quite understandable, as the temperatures have as well. They are now between -5 and -10 degrees celsius.
Followingly (I believe), the rings have fallen off my two B flat clarinet barrels (for some reason, they still are tight on my A clarinet barrels). I would assume that this is due to contractions of the dry wood.
I know that some of you are going to tell me to get a humidifier for my practice room. It is, however, not important to me that these rings are on the barrel, unless they are there for a reason. I am not familiar with why they are there in the first place. Therefore, I ask the Board these questions:
What function does the rings on the barrel (and on the other parts of the clarinet, for that sake) have? Does the barrel suffer from being played without the rings?
Please keep in mind the differences between the effects of low humidty and the effects of playing the barrel without the rings.
(I have two Humistat cylinders in my Buffet Pouchette double case.)
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
Post Edited (2009-12-21 19:28)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-21 19:50
The functionality of the rings is one of reinforcement. That is, if you are going to be putting more force than usual removing and reapplying the barrel, you may run the risk of a crack starting at the outer edge.
Sonically there may be a benefit in that there is less damping and the wood is free to resonate unimpeded. You don't have to look far to find custom barrels (and even some factory provided barrels) that utilize a metal ring free design. However these barrels are designed this way with a FULL amount of wood around the socket areas. And of course, I cannot say that these designs are as durable as the standard configuration even though my primary barrel right now for my CSG is a Segal "fatboy."
..............Paul Aviles
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-12-21 19:58
Thank you for your answer – I have one more question:
Are rings generally held in place by pressure, and not glued?
If I was to glue the rings to the barrel so that they could stay there even in winter in order to let the rings do their reinforcement, would the glue in any way interfere with the design as the weather goes warmer again?
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-21 20:18
Socket rings are usually a pressure fit but some makers will also apply glue before fitting them.
Glueing the rings on won't cause any problems provided there aren't any gaps between the wood and the inside of the socket ring.
If the gap is large enough you can fit a paper shim in between the wood and the socket ring by covering the end of the socket with a piece of paper, then fitting the ring on half to 3/4 the way on, then trim off the excess paper around the outside and the disc of paper inside the ring with a sharp blade (scalpel, razorblade, craft knife, etc.) and then tap the ring all the way down with a wooden or rawhide mallet (or protected with a block of wood if using a metal hammer). Make sure you put the ring back on the right way round before pushing it back in place!
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-12-21 20:25
I have a related question: I have a barrel from an R13 that is missing a bottom ring. Where can I get these rings? I've gone through several stores and none of them has it.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 20:27
Why do you seem to be trying so hard to avoid humidifying the instrument (you can humidify the case without dealing with the room humidity) to get the rings to tighten? (I know you kind of asked us not to recommend it, but it's still the easiest way to prevent loose rings.)
If the rings are loose because of dryness, the barrel tenons are not the only wood that's affected. Dryness in other areas of the instrument can cause small but possibly perceptible changes in resistance, tone and intonation, not to mention at least a slightly greater danger of cracking. The loose rings are the most obvious signs, but they may (probably do) indicate a more general problem.
Karl
Post Edited (2009-12-21 20:29)
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-21 21:56
It's an interesting question because so many barrel makers make barrels without any rings at all these days. I think the rings prevent cracking or swelling during the humid times. For sure, I would not recommend using glue, I would do what Chris P suggested and news paper works great, I've done that many times to my students and my past instruments. Now I use Backun barrels with wood rings and they never come lose, I believe they are glued on but I won't do that with the metal rings. Don't ask me why, I don't have a good answer. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-12-21 22:02
Let me get off topic a little bit.
It's kind of interesting that everyone has different opinions. I remember reading from an article by Ridenour and if I remember it correctly, he said that the metal rings on buffet festivals (you know, the rings at the ends of each piece) actually add more risks for the clarinet to crack. I forgot what his reasons were, something related to a non-even humidity or something.
I assume the rings on the barrels not to be too different. and here everyone's saying that the ring will prevent cracking..
Ed you must have some reason in your mind for not use glue I know you said don't ask why, and I didn't yet.. but.. can you elaborate a little?
I can't help to ask because I just glued a ring on last night.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-21 22:22
Paul's original response was on target. It isn't a question of preventing cracking in the usual sense. The rings are there to reinforce the sockets where they have been turned fairly thin to accept the tenon that fits into them. If the tenon is rocked a little or pushed in at an angle when assembling the clarinet, you run the risk of breaking (cracking) the wood socket because of the stress - the pressure against a relatively thin area of wood. It's not the same thing as cracking along the grain that happens to clarinets, sometimes with no obvious reason.
Ringless barrels are designed with thicker wood where the socket is to provide the same reinforcement. Questions about whether or not rings change the sound are hard to answer because there's more wood where the rings would be.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-21 22:40
Socket rings are to keep the wood in compression as that way it's less likely to crack when assembled as the tenon cork will exert an outward force on the socket.
With loose or no socket rings (on a standard thickness socket), the tenon cork will apply stress to the socket when assembled that can crack the timber as there's nothing there to protect the socket against the internal pressure.
Loose tenons and loose socket rings together are a recipie for disaster as the tenon can rock within the socket and the stress can split the wood. This happens on middle tenons that are loose and the lower joint socket has a loose socket ring.
Metal tenon rings (or metal tipped tenons) protect the end grain on tenons from absorbing water provided they're sealed properly during fitting, and protect the tenon rings from damage due to careless handling.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-12-21 22:53
As I said, I have two Humistat cylinders in my case. I'm not sure how much they really matter, though. Should've bought Greenline...
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2009-12-21 23:48
To TianL, the reason I asked not to ask about not glueing is that I don't really have an intelligent answer, though I know that never stopped me before. It just seems wrong to glue the metal rings to the wood but I can't really give you a good reason other than I've never had a repair person recommend it and I would think someone would have if it was a good idea. They always suggested paper between the wood and the ring to keep the ring on secure. I guess maybe because when the wood would shrink a bit the glue would not shrink with it but I'm not really sure what consequence it would cause. Just a gut feeling. ESP
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-22 00:32
Sorry - I missed that in your original post.
What is a Humistat cylinder? I'm familiar with "Damp-it" humidifiers (basically long sponges encased in perforated rubber). They need to kept moistened on a daily basis. Do Humistats work the same way?
Karl
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2009-12-22 00:40
kdk wrote:
> Sorry - I missed that in your original post.
>
> What is a Humistat cylinder? I'm familiar with "Damp-it"
> humidifiers (basically long sponges encased in perforated
> rubber). They need to kept moistened on a daily basis. Do
> Humistats work the same way?
>
> Karl
http://www.doctorsprod.com/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=46
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-22 01:27
Thanks. I've probably read about them before but didn't notice pay attention.
Karl
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Author: TianL
Date: 2009-12-22 03:41
thank iceland, yeah that's one i was talking about.
i don't necessarily agree with Ridenour on this one, but definitely agree with him of not using metal mouthpiece caps.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-22 11:47
In which of the videos does he say this about metal rings? It didn't seem to be in the two about avoiding cracks.
Karl
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2009-12-22 12:28
There is no problem at all about using a glue that can easily be removed if necessary.
Clean the ring and timber. Then use stick shellac. Heat the ring until you can melt a suitably thick layer of glue inside it. Put it on the tenon socket.
When the glue has half set it is easy to push off surplus with a chisel made of soft material such as plastic or hard wood. You could use the but end of an old reed.
There is theoretically a problem if the socket has shrunk, then you fit a ring firmly, then at a later date the timber swells again. The socket is likely to become narrower at the entrance - where expansion is prevented by the ring - than further into the socket. The socket should be cylindrical, unless the manufacturer meant it to match a taper on the tenon. Otherwise the joint has excessive wobble.
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2009-12-22 12:56
Ed P,
I have noticed that all the "new" ringless barrels out there all have very thick walls; 3+mm at the thinnest. A regular barrel with rings has wood that gets as thin as 1.5mm under the rings. These are much weaker.
Like everyone else, I recommend that the OP have these put back properly.
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Author: Joarkh
Date: 2009-12-22 14:53
I stuck some paper in between, as suggested, and the rings now fit tight.
I also have thought of what will happen when the wood swells again. What would I do if I - hypothetically - was to remove the paper again? Wait until the wood contracts again?
Joar
Clarinet and saxophone teacher, clarinet freelancer
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2009-12-22 15:16
Just leave the shims - no problem.
"If it ain't loose, don't tighten."
................Paul Aviles
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2009-12-22 20:00
Just to be clear, he's not talking about the metal rings that Joarkh began this thread with. He's talking about end caps that some makers put on the tenons themselves. Those are fitted (forced, it seems to me) much more tightly than rings are, so, again to be clear and avoid confusion for anyone reading all of this, Tom is not calling barrel rings (or other socket rings) a dumb idea. Many players do, however, like the sound of ringless barrels designed with thicker socket walls to compensate.
Karl
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-12-22 20:57
TianL: "I have a related question: I have a barrel from an R13 that is missing a bottom ring. Where can I get these rings? I've gone through several stores and none of them has it."
The best source for spare socket rings are woodwind repairers who may have some damaged Buffet barrels lying around the place (or have stocked up on the rings removed from them), or Army/Marines band repair workshops that might have a load of broken Greenline barrels.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2009-12-23 06:44
Humidity gradients and thermal gradients (wet inside, dry outside), cold outside, warm inside can equally cause the inner or outer wall of the clarinet go into tension and crack. If you do the math (hard to get real data for clarinet woods), it is scary. The stress can easily exceed the cross-grain tensile strength of the wood.
Out of paranoia and the cost of crack repair, I do my best to keep my clarinet cases at about 60% relative humidity and NEVER blow warm, damp air into a cold clarinet. If your bore is wet, the inside of your clarinet is at 100% RH.
The 60% specification comes from my crack repairer, by the way; and since doing that (knock on grenadilla), no cracks.
Frustrating to have a new instrument come air freight, then relayed by truck in the cold and then have to let it sit in the house for a couple of hours before being willing to play it.
My teacher showed me how to put the upper joint with barrel under one armpit and the lower joint under the other to get a cold clarinet up to ready to play.
My commercial humidifiers have all failed to keep even a single case to 60% RH, so I keep a couple of saturated sponges in mine. Right now, my house and horns are at 60%, and I'm relaxed.
Bob Phillips
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2009-12-23 06:51
>> It just seems wrong to glue the metal rings to the wood
>> but I can't really give you a good reason other than I've
>> never had a repair person recommend it and I would think
>> someone would have if it was a good idea.
Gordon who also posted in this thread recommend shellac glue and I've tried it based on his suggestion. Unlike most glues (super glue etc.) shellac is good both at filling the gap and supporting the metal ring.
>> They always suggested paper between the wood and the
>> ring to keep the ring on secure. I guess maybe because
>> when the wood would shrink a bit the glue would not shrink
>> with it but I'm not really sure what consequence it would cause.
Iconsider gluing with shellac better in some ways to shimming with paper. The sheallac fills all around the tenon the exact amount necessary (which might not be the same in every location). The paper has one thickness, which you don't know is exactly correct, and it might not support all around the tenon, possibly slightly distorting it. I don't think shimming with paper is bad, but I just consider shellac better.
I have one ring glued with shellac on my clarinet and it survived no problem a few summers and winters (approx -3 to 40 degrees at worst times) and constantly traveling between a very dry city to a very humid city. AFAIK none of the rings that I glued with shellac became loose again.
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