 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2009-02-06 02:28
Okay, fellow clarinetists - I was invited to play principal clarinet with a newly formed chamber orchestra in my upscale-ish town. I agreed. A case of the flu forced me to miss the first rehearsal. When I attended the second rehearsal, I was handed the music for 2nd and told that last week the other clarinetist took home the music for principal and we could "work out between us" who would play principal.
You can see this one coming, can't you? Of course, the other person can't play. At all. Not only that, but at the conclusion of the rehearsal this person said something to the effect that I must be bored.
Now, if the situation were reversed and I were seated next to a more experienced player, I would have voluntarily handed over the music. Isn't that what manners and common sense would dictate?
I must admit that there is a part of me that feels I should take the high road and just play the 2nd part. However, the other side remembers being asked to play principal and there is the issue of competence. Am I being a snob?
Oh - and I had to pay money to play with this group.
Sue
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-02-06 02:34
The conductor shouldn't give you the parts and let you work it out. He could assign parts and give you the leeway to switch them around if everyone agrees, or he could cycle parts per concert, or even per piece. Making it entirely the performers' problem is a recipe for disaster.
Given the circumstances, to make the best of it, when the conductor gave you the part and told you that the two of you could work it out, I would have recommended immediately telling the other clarinetist just that, that the conductor said the two of you should work it out. Then you could have worked it out.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-02-06 02:47
Amateur ensemble politics are complicated.
I have been in many and have played 2nd next to incompetence and 1st next to much better player than me. It all depends on the group dynamics.
There is no "best" way to do this. If the conductor is approachable maybe remind him/her what the original deal was. Otherwise, it is going to be pretty tricky to tell the other player you're taking his/her part...
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2009-02-06 02:54
Here are the possible responses, as I see it:
1. Sit there and play second and let the incompetent first player do themselves in.
2. Wait until the person who offered you the principal chair tries to remedy the situation.
3. Walk away and find something better to do.
Jupiter Canada Artist/Clinician
Stratford Shakespeare Festival musician
Woodwind Doubling Channel Creator on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/c/WoodwindDoubling
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2009-02-06 03:37
I remember sitting in in a group, and they needed a second clarinetist cause it turns out their second chair could not make it to a concert. the third clarinetist gave me the second music cause, in his words, "Only because I'm a better sight-reader and I don't have enough time to work it up." That to me is an issue of not what you say, but how you say it.
I understand, and IMO, it should go to a degree by seniority. Someone who has been loyal to a community band from the beginning, IMO deserves the right to choose what to play. After all, they have helped found it and have proven themselves dependable.
However for the music's sake, I would think in this instance dividing up the parts as far as what you know you are capable of would be better. I would rather play a second or third part if I knew I would botch up the first and play that part well, then insist on playing first because I 'deserve' it. However if I was the senior clarinetist, and knew I could handle the first, I would.
Alexi
PS - in the section in my band (military band mind you), we always mix it up concert to concert. And we DO take into account playing levels. So while last concert I was principle clarinet (christmas concert), and I was able to play the parts, the one before that I was third clarinet. And THAT principle was able to play the parts. And the one before that, i was second, etc. etc. That way it's more fair. But that was how my section leader chose to run the section. Everyone get's a shot.
PPS - in your situation, if you are comfortable and know the new principle well enough, I would suggest that you bring up that the conductor offerred you guys working it out, and politely suggest splitting up the parts. A few first and seconds each. I don't think it can hurt to ask nicely.
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2009-02-06 04:13
Show off during your warmup before each rehearsal and whale through the first part nice and loud so everyone can hear how much better you are.
Post Edited (2009-02-06 04:14)
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2009-02-06 05:01
Johnny Galaga wrote:
>>Show off during your warmup before each rehearsal and whale through the first part nice and loud so everyone can hear how much better you are.<<
That's just obnoxious.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: JessKateDD
Date: 2009-02-06 05:22
Here in Houston, there is a local community band which has plenty of good players but an incredibly bad clarinet section led by a woman who is only first chair because her husband is one of the conductors. Though an incredibly weak player with an awful sound, she insists on always sitting first and playing every solo. This community band has no challenge or chairing system - she is first chair for life. She was so horrible that I attended exactly one rehearsal and never returned. I've met others who have told me they did the exact same thing when they tried that band out. Should that band ever reform its clarinet section, maybe I'll give it another try, but probably not.
3dog, were I you, I'd ask to sit first, as was the original agreement, or for your money back. It's no fun sitting in a section led by a lousy player. Music is a meritocracy, not a democracy. The strongest player should play first, period. If the other player cares about the group, she will want you to play first since you are the more advanced player. Now, in a community group, I think it is also good to spread around the wealth a bit - when an easy piece comes up, it's good for morale to throw the better parts to the weaker players so that they can shine for a change. But when the passages are more difficult, the best players must be playing them.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2009-02-06 06:02
It appears to me that the conductor should have sat down with both of you players and helped work out a solution.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Cindyr
Date: 2009-02-06 08:17
Sue: If you're close enough, we could use you in the clarinet section of the community band I'm in, based in Medway, Ma.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2009-02-06 09:53
You could offer to share. Say you'd like to have a look at the first parts for /some/ of the pieces (and do swapsies with the second part). Hopefully this'll start a dialogue and you'll reach a happy equilibrium.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2009-02-06 10:13
More often than not with community bands, the conductor has little say in who sits where (and has little interest and lets a lot of things go unnoticed) - it's usually determined by the committee favouring committee members to hold positions in the band even theough they're usually the weakest players, though they use their status or connections to be where they think they should be even if there are far better players taking a back seat who never get a look in.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Noqu
Date: 2009-02-06 10:21
Funny, I have it rather the other way round. In our student orchestra, we have 2 first, two second clarinets, and our conductor lets us work it out between ourselves.
Normally, this means that everybody ends up with some pieces on first, some on second, but since I am relatively new to the orchestra and still a little unexperienced, I have politely refused to play anything but second so far.
And they keep encouraging me that I should try at least one piece on first. Very nice people. Of course it helps that we are playing in pairs, so that the stronger player can help when things become hairy.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2009-02-06 11:21
You're absolutely right, I did miss a rehearsal. That is important. And maybe that's the long and short of it.
Maybe I need to give myself permission to bow out gracefully, as I wasn't looking for another commitment but agreed to attend because I thought they needed me, be a good member of the music community and such. As if I'm so great that my very presence is a gift...not at all.
The conductor has had no hand in assignment of parts, as someone earlier described. The orchestra manager is the one handing them out. It would crush the person who currently has the part if I were to question or challenge her, and I can't do that. If they are all happy, that is the main concern. In the scheme of things it's really not crucial what happens to me, but that people are getting together to make some music, about which they are pleased. I guess I will consider my "dues" as a "donation".
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Author: Bluesparkle
Date: 2009-02-06 15:43
I sit squarely in the middle of the 2nd clarinets in my community band. This is because the lady who is in charge of keeping our music organized wasn't there the night I started, and the conductor had an extra 2nd clarinet folder, and there were already two clarinets who got to the rehearsal ahead of me, so I sat to their left.
Turns out it doesn't really matter to us. If it did, I think the whole experience would be tarnished.
Our first clarinetist is superior to the rest of us and we all know it. We just hope to keep the experience fun enough so that he will stay and make us sound good. The gentleman who plays first chair, 3rd clarinet is also an excellent player (better than those of us in the 2nd row). I understand there is a fight between the last two clarinets to see who can sit in the last chair.
I think it is far better to have a quality player in each section than it is to stack everyone up in order by ability.
The person who is playing principal now already knows you are better. The conductor knows you are better or he wouldn't have asked you first. Just be the best 2nd clarinetist they've had, and enjoy the social outlet and the music.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2009-02-06 16:17
I play 2nd clarinet and 3rd as the band needs it. And I play as well as any of the 1st (better then several) and have played princiapl as well as featured soloist many time.
But I like the people I sit next to and that works for me (and I have a large ego but have had no trouble doing what's best for the band).
A lot of times, I'm really the anchor for the 2nd or 3rds.
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Author: EJ
Date: 2009-02-06 19:30
I feel your pain 3dogmom! In my particular case, it's a matter of section balance and not so much which part I play, because I'm not interested in 1st part. I play 2nd, along with 2 others and the other parts each have 5 players. That being said, it still smarts when new members have been put on 1st part and I was never asked if I'd like to move up. From what I've read here on the board, community band politics aren't are anything but fair. I think it's only human to want others to appreciate the hard work we do and we've all put in a great deal of hard work into playing the clarinet. I mean, after all, having others appreciate our playing is the whole point. I've tried to take the high road and I've tried not to let the resentment build. It's either that, or leave the band completely. If you can swap parts with the other player, it will be obvious who is the better player. The other players in my section know how I play and the director knows. Good Luck!
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2009-02-06 21:50
Uhm, one's torn between personal pride and the best intentions for the group...
Eventually the "hijacker" (for lack of a better term) will either prevail or collapse. It just isn't the right time for the chest-banging gorilla number - just be the one quietly sitting there, doing his/her job, saying "my offer still stands...".
Band fun doesn't manifest itself in solos and principal performances alone. Enjoy the blessings of being a friendly and dependable team player. Your time will come...
--
Ben
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2009-02-07 15:29
I am willing to do whatever is needed, that's for sure. It boggles my mind, though, that a person will keep hold of a part that it's obvious they can't play. How is it that they don't find that embarrassing?
It's an interesting question - how good does the music need to be? As good as it can be? Or is it just a respository for folks who want a chance to play? I think it is the latter, and I feel like a snob for even suggesting that the quality of the music is important.
I want to make a positive contribution.
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2009-02-07 17:37
I think it does matter who plays first. I used to play in a community band where the lady playing first was just terrible. She could not handle the music. Since all of the music we played in that group was orchestra music arrange for symphonic band a lot of the music was difficult. I was playing 3rd clarinet and e-flat clarinet. It just kill me everything when she could play the music. I just wanted to jump in to first part but since she had been in that group since the band was started she was going to be first chair for ever. And she is the type of person that will only play first.
I know 3 or clarinet players that stop attending the group just because of her. I think that this type of issues need to be resolve by the conductor. Because if the conductor does not like the playing he should say something about it.
3dogmon, I think you should have a meeting with the conductor and the other clarinet player and talk about what are the expectation of the music and the group overall. I think that if you stay and keep playing 2nd that will put some pressure on the 1st clarinet player to actually practice more or just to simply give the seat to you.
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2009-02-09 19:36
I always aim for Eb in community bands. Nobody else ever wants to play it, so you have free reign.
I do agree though, that politics are extremely sticky in situations such as these. In my opinion, community bands' main purpose should be to promote beer drinking. We'd all be a lot better off.
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Author: Sylvain
Date: 2009-02-09 20:52
3dogmom:
I have played in so many amateur ensemble that I am almost a "professional" amateur at this point. I have encountered basically 3 scenarios:
1- The conductor auditions you and decides what you are going to do. End of discussion.
2- There is already a player in charge at your stand and s/he decides who plays what.
3- Players decides amongst themselves who is going to play what.
(1) has always been *by far* my favorite and I am no fan of (3).
It is always easier in large groups when someone is in charge at least,things are cery clear even f you don't like the part you are on.
--
Sylvain Bouix <sbouix@gmail.com>
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Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2009-02-10 12:51
>>Note to self: Only play bass in community bands. The drama doesn't seem to make its way back there.
>>
-Alex
>>
I love it! Yeah, if I wanted to play in a community group, I'd take alto clarinet, contra-alto clarinet and bass sax, and ask to sit in the back with the other foghorns. Haven't got a bass clarinet or I'd take that, too. For some reason the bass winds just don't get into the diva behavior. The tuba and sousaphone players are some of the nicest people I've ever met. I think the flute players are worse with the Chihuahua from Hell behavior than the clarinetists, though.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
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Author: dgclarinet
Date: 2009-02-10 13:54
Lelia, one of the good things about playing Eb in a community band is that you're assured of making flute players mad at you, no matter if you play perfectly in tune or not...they'll find a reason to get mad at you, and that's always fun. I love making faces at them when they think I'm playing too loud.
Again...the key to community bands is beer.
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Author: xarkon
Date: 2009-02-10 21:43
Lelia Loban wrote:
> I think the flute players are worse with the Chihuahua from Hell behavior > than the clarinetists, though.
Thanks for the laugh, Lelia. I was reminded of a discussion about concert dress for our community band. As the director was going through the list of appropriate attire, someone in the back cracked:
"Tell the flute players: NO TIARAS."
Dave
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Author: Mario Poirier
Date: 2009-02-10 22:04
It all depends on what is the purpose of the ensemble:
A - If the group exists, first and above all, to enable amateur musicians to make music together with the general public coming second to this endeavour, then accrued seniority, past contributions as volunteer and long-standing relationships will be key in determining how chairs are allocated. Typically, these groups play mostly for family and friends or support community activities where showing up is all what count – music be dammed! And yes these organizations tend to be extremely political as excellence is not a prime input to staffing decisions leading to intense subjectivity in their running. If one joins, one must bid his/her time and wait for his/her turn. And one must make new friends asap.
B - On the other hand, if the organization exists for its public as a critical stakeholder as well by promising to pure strangers - people in the community at large with no personal relationships with musicians in the group - a good musical experience, then performance standards usually dictate staffing decisions. Typically, these groups do lot of marketing, organize quality stand-alone concerts, join fund raisers with stiff ticket prices. These organizations tend to be led by a few people with definite musical credentials (in particular the artistic director, the personal manager, and several influential musicians occupying leading roles) and tend to be rigorous in their allocation of roles. If one joins, one must deliver reliably and maintain a polished stance. One must establish credibility with teammates asap.
And of course there are all those organizations pretending to transition from type A to type B as the desire to step up musically sometimes starts to drive the agenda. Not all organizations succeed as not all people can follow: those left behind feel threatened and pack the Board potentially derailing this goal; others are happy to freeload on their betters and will not even consider leaving as performance standards move up. In all teams (at work or at play), 80% of the problems are caused by the bottom 20%. Depending on the strength of the resolve for transition from A to B and on how far the group has progressed, this bottom 20% will linger on and on and on, or will be asked to leave. Of one joins, one must evaluate where the organization is in this transition before making noise w.r.t. the relative abilities of existing musicians. If it is well-under way, promote yourself graciously. If it is not, wait a bit and be patient: you time will come.
Mario Poirier
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Author: Sean.Perrin
Date: 2009-02-11 00:45
First of all, what is an "upscale-ish town"? Haha...
Secondly... it sounds like you weren't "asked to play" for money or to volunteer your time, you were asked to join a struggling community association, at your own cost. In this situation you will encounter seniority because some of the paying members have been there longer and want the parts (and rightly so if they "paid" to have them).
Honestly, get out of it while you still can... think up a great excuse and then pass it off to a student, one who will enjoy and benefit from the opportunity no matter which part they play.
Founder and host of the Clarineat Podcast: http://www.clarineat.com
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2009-02-11 05:00
Okay, I'm the personnel manager of a community orchestra. My take on this is that when our conductor says "work it out amongst yourselves," that means the expectation is that the 1st and 2nd parts should be split up. So I would say to the other clarinet player something along the lines of "Hey, would you mind if I played 1st on a piece or two to mix it up." If you encounter resistance, approach the conductor (or personnel manager, if the group has one) and explain that you thought you would be playing some 1st parts, you're happy to share parts but the other person rebuffed your suggestions.
We had this problem once with a part-hog flute player. The conductor just stated very calmly but firmly during rehearsal before the entire group that he would like person A to play 1st on X piece and the part hog to play 1st on Y piece. The part hog wasn't happy but the new player was a total ringer and the conductor did not want to lose her.
Sometimes, the existing person will hug the parts initially not so much out of being a hog but out of waiting to see if the new person sticks with it or flakes out half way through rehearsals (sometimes too common in community groups). Perhaps this person fears you might flake because you missed an early rehearsal. If you act in a cool way and prove that you are reliable, you may find the person shoving the difficult first parts your way for the next concert.
Sharing parts has worked well for our group. The 2nd players have an occasional moment to shine and will often really practice hard when given a challenge. A 1st player who runs into work or other conflicts also has the option of stepping down on some parts to lighten the practice/rehearsal load.
By the way, I have a FAQ sheet for new members which explains the no principals situation, asks them to consider both their skill and time available for rehearsal and practice in dividing parts in the first instance and encourages them to approach me or the conductors if there is any issue.
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Author: 3dogmom
Date: 2009-02-11 12:16
Eileen, I think your approach makes total sense. I would like to think we could operate in an egaliatarian way, in many other areas as well!
Update - I was advised that, in fact, the original plan had been for me to play principal, but that I missed the first rehearsal and the other player took the music. Understandable, as many of you had indicated. However, they plan to have me play first at our next rehearsal and will then decide who is playing the part.
I will keep you posted. This has been an interesting topic, thank you for your responses!
Sue
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Author: chipper
Date: 2009-02-11 14:07
Our band falls into Mario's group A. We play mostly for friends and family, at community events and at old folks homes. It is a great venue for the casual player. We "self regulate" among the sections, who plays what part is determined by who can and who wants to. We indeed are able to work it out between players, we are blessed with camaraderie and good will.
That being said, I am on hiatus until I can actually play the music. (I'm a new player in my 50s) The band has been kind beyond words and I know ensemble experience is valuable, but I was only able to play parts of each piece in tune and in time to my personal satisfaction. The band didn't seem to mind, but I knew I needed work. So I'm holed up in my practice room with my metronome, tuner and music minus one cds. When I come out of the closet again I know the band will be there, welcoming me with open arms and will appreciate my contribution.
Sue, I don't know if this helps, but my point is that you should determine what YOU want out of the community band experience and what you're willing to tolerate to get it. If what you want is not available in your community then perhaps you should look for another outlet for your talents.
C
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