 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-11-14 13:52
Hi can anyone shed any light on this clarinet marked "1.LOT B&S L"
I think its rose wood?
Is B&S boosey & son ?
Is it simple system ?
The top joint bore measures approx 14.9mm but I dont have the correct tools for measuring it so could be slightly out here.
length without mp is approx 57.5cm or 22.5"
Anyway as always your thoughts are appreciated..
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-14 16:40
This one is definitely simple system.
I.Lot was a maker (but I can't find any info on him), not sure if he's related to Louis Lot (French maker) who was famous for his flutes and the open hole keywork on Boehm system flutes.
B&S (Blechblas & Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik) are a German company based in Markneukirchen (in former E.Germany) who specialise in brass (as well as making flutes and saxes), though I'm not sure if they would have made woodwinds (wooden-bodied ones) dating that far back.
I assume the 'L' means low pitch (though probably between 438 and 440Hz)
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-11-14 16:42)
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Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-14 17:37
Boosey used the name "Boosey & Son" about 150 years ago. Whether they would have abbreviated it as B&S I don't know.
As Chris P says, "B&S (Blechblas & Signal-Instrumenten-Fabrik) are a German company based in Markneukirchen".
However, I wonder whether the East German B&S has been around long enough to have made this instrument. At http://www.saxophon-service.de/online/da030602.html we read:
"„B&S“ steht für „Blas- und Signalinstrumente“ , der Name eines 1953 gegründeten „volkseigenen“ Betriebs (VEB) im Musikwinkel Vogtland, Sachsen. Dieser Konzern wiederum war Nachfolger verschiedener namhafter Firmen aus der Vorkriegszeit wie Oscar Adler (Markneukirchen) und G. H. Hüller (Schöneck)."
In other words, the name B&S dates back only to 1953, the firm being a state-owned enterprise formed by the amalgamation of pre-war firms.
B&S now forms part of JA Musik, who also own Marigaux. See http://www.ja-musik.com/seiten/group/group_brands_de.php.
..................
I wonder whether this is the same instrument as listed here:
http://www.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/sales/ghresults-30-06-06.htm
Post Edited (2008-11-14 19:19)
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Author: Arlee
Date: 2008-11-14 17:44
This is not a Simple System, Jexas. It is an Albert - (early German) System.
It has the "patent C#" mechanism, which simple systems do not have. Yours has the side (trill key) Eb/Bb, which the simple system does not have.
Your clarinet looks very similar to a Simple system because simples have only the bottom two rings (Brille) and no rollers on pinky keys and levers. Early "Alberts" also had no top joint ring keys so, maybe this could be classified as an 'in-between' development just before what most of us old timers (in the USA) would regard as the Albert System.
Any Albert System fingering chart will give you information you might need to learn to play it, if you haven't figured it out already. "L" most likely means Low Pitch: A=440 -- good to go with modern instruments.
Looks like a pretty nice horn... Have Fun! 
Arlee
Post Edited (2008-11-14 17:49)
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-14 18:52
I thought simple system was kind of a generic term? Anyway, it is indeed an Albert system. I have a JTL clarinet from the same era and it has the same reddish colored wood that is absolutely gorgeous. I had the impression it was just unstained grenadilla or relative thereof? Maybe Cocus though? I would guess that it is a high pitch instrument.
Post Edited (2008-11-14 18:53)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-14 19:34
Arlee, Simple system and Albert system are two different names for the same thing.
Simple and Albert systems did have the Patent C# and lower joint rings just like the one pictured.
And Albert was Belgian.
Boosey & Hawkes were formed from the joining of two companies - Boosey & Co. and Hawkes & Son - I don't think there was a Boosey & Son.
Ok, here's an extract from Anthony Baines' book, quoted word-for-word (and not skipping bits):
Simple or Albert system
Simple System: the 13-keyed clarinet as remodelled by Albert of Brussels about the middle of the last century (Plate XII). In spite of the general adoption in England of the Boehm system within the last forty years, the simple system is still played by many, and no beginner should be afraid of using it should a good flat-pitch pair become available. This is no unlikely event, for the system was still manufactured in the 1930s. Many continental manufacturers make it still. It is important that the instrument should include the patent C# (fig.21, extreme left; shown next to it is the appearance of the bottom joint without it). This involves a duplicate C# hole (l, fig.21) controlled by the C key. It abolished the need for sliding the left little finger from key to key when going from B to C#; pressing the B key only gives C#, while pressing the C key as well gives B as usual.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-11-14 19:35)
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-11-14 20:02
Thanks for the info so far everyone
Does this rule out Blas & Signal date wise?
I havent tried to play it yet as it needs some work, pads and tenon corks and a good clean,all of which im a bit apprehensive about doing myself until I learn a bit more or should I say alot more about the correct way to do it,and ive practised doing it on a good few junk claris first,having said that I would like to know more about this one like who is I.Lot? When and where was this one made etc.
I have googled a few hundred pages one of which seemd to be the closest representation of the keywork
http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ugw/ugwf1j.html
Not being an expert I did come across an image also of a Boosey&Co although I cant seem to find it now which also looked very similar and my search also confirms Norberts info on B&H "For ten years, beginning in 1854, the company was known as Boosey & Sons and for the rest of the nineteenth century, the company was known as Boosey & Co." ref (Hazen and Hazen 1987, 130)
Im also intrigued by the little black dots that are on some of the keys,why are they there? at first i thought it might be plate wear but thats definetly not the case is it? They seem far too uniform. Would I be right in thinking the keys are made fom German silver?
so many questions and no time to play!!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-14 20:14
"For ten years, beginning in 1854, the company was known as Boosey & Sons and for the rest of the nineteenth century, the company was known as Boosey & Co." ref (Hazen and Hazen 1987, 130)
Thanks for pointing that out. So were they also music publishers (as was Boosey&Co. later on) or manufacturers?
The black dots are the flat spring screw tips as they go all the way through the key touches and then filed smooth with the surface, and have turned black due to them oxidising. The keys are nickel silver.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2008-11-14 20:58)
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Author: Jexas
Date: 2008-11-15 17:51
Further google research shows
The name of Isidore Lot of La Couture appeared in exhibition catalogues between 1867 and 1886 Ref: The New Grove Dictionary of Musical Instruments - Page 539 But I don’t actually have a copy so I cant say further….
Also interestingly at http://www.gardinerhoulgate.co.uk/sales/ghresults-07-12-2007.htm
Shows -
0181 Cocuswood flute by Thomas Isidor Lot, stamped I. Lot, Boehm system,
Another interesting reference at http://www.powerhousemuseum.com/collection/database/?irn=352267
Chris the reference for Boosey I was looking at was at http://www.angelfire.com/music2/thecornetcompendium/new_page_8.html/
(scroll down to Boosey)
So I think I can conclude its definitely "Isidore Lot" one the famous Louis Lot family as Chris thought, and its either cocus wood or grenadille , its probably late 19th C of course this is assuming the references I found are correct?
Im still struggling to verify the B&S stamp though and so far have only come up with a possible import by a firm called Barnet Samuel or Boosey?
Any further info greatly appreciated thanks again.
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Author: chris moffatt
Date: 2008-11-25 11:17
This clarinet IS a simple system clarinet. You can tell from the lack of rings on the upper body and the lack of rollers on the lower body among other differences. The simple and Albert systems are not the same. I have a Besson simple system horn made in London in 1940, so these instruments were still being made at that time. I believe they are still being made in India, judging by the flaky instruments I see advertised on E-bay from tme to time. As for the rest of the opinions I go along with Chris P.
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Author: modernicus
Date: 2008-11-27 14:53
As I understand it, there is no such thing as the Albert or Simple system as a formal definition, these are just terms assigned to a set of keywork styles and improvements of the Mueller system by Albert of Brussels. I was just looking at pictures of a clarinet actually made by Albert (http://www.music.ed.ac.uk/euchmi/ugw/ugwf1d.html) and it doesn't have upper rings, rollers, or patent C#. This website lists all of the ones at the top corner as simple system, but I can't imagine that you couldn't also call it an "Albert" as well.
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