 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Ryan K
Date: 2008-11-16 15:39
I'm doing a project on the history of the clarinet for my high school senior project. I know a simple google search can turn up many results, but are there any specific resources of great merit I could use, well developed photo databases, or other good on line or in print texts or resources.
Thanks
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-11-16 19:20
There's a great book written by Jack Brymer, a former principal clarinetist of one of the London Symphony Orchestras. his book is called "The Clarinet". When I get home tonight I'll give you the publisher if no one else has done it already. I'm out of town right now. It has a great complete history of the clarinet and family. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, live performance
It's from the Yehudi Menuhin Music Guides pub. by Schirmer Books, it's totlally complete!
ESP eddiesclarinet.com
Post Edited (2008-11-17 01:09)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2008-11-16 19:37
Ryan -
You've bitten off a big chunk. Start with the Clarinet article in Grove and then go to the sources listed at the end of that article.
Albert Rice has written two entire (and wonderful) books on just part of the subject: The Baroque Clarinet and The Clarinet in the Classical Period. They're available from http://www.vcisinc.com/clarinet.htm, items C146 and C1036, and in most music libraries.
There are LOTS of messages on this site about clarinet history, which you can find with the Search function.
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-16 19:40
Ryan,
There are four books that you should own if you are an aspiring clarinetist. The first is:
Clarinet by Jack Brymer (as Ed mentioned). It's part of the Menhuin Music Guides and should be still in print. Published my Macdonald and Jane.
The Clarinet by Geoffery Rendall. I don't think this is in print any more but check EBay, I've seen copies on there. My edition (2nd edition 1957) was published by Ernest Benn Limited. I was given this copy, I haven't had it since 1957!
The Cambridge Companion to the Clarinet by Colin Lawson. Readily available. Published by Cambridge University Press
The Early Clarinet: A Practical Introduction. Again by Colin Lawson and also published by Cambridge University Press. This deals in all aspects of the early clarinet including the playing of them and modern reproductions.
Also try and get the Clarinet Classics CD, The History of the Clarinet. This is quite interesting with extremely old recordings, the earliest I think is 1897. I don't have the CD to hand to be sure.
Hope that helps your project.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2008-11-16 19:41)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2008-11-16 19:48
Jack Brymer's clar. "bible" is available from Amazon, B&N etc along with at least another dozen clar books, all of which have history, pics etc. If you wish a detailed early history, the books by Al Rice, on Baroque and Classical [up to about 1850] cls, players and music. Books by Colin Lawson and Baines ["WW Insts and their History" in partic.] are fine references. Even our med-size local public library has a number of these which could keep you reading. We have sources of much info "right here in River City" [our BBoard archives] available via computer Search [above]. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-16 19:56
I'm not sure whether your project is on the history of the technical development of the clarinet, or its use in music.
When I suggested Baines's book, I was thinking of the former.
Whatever you write about, remember that the interesting questions in any subject are the Why? questions, not the What? questions.
Nobody (well, nobody but a clarinet geek) wants to read a dry inventory of different designs of keywork. But the Why? questions may be interesting to a more general audience of musicians:
- Why is the clarinet the only orchestral instrument where the player is expected to own a pair in different keys?
- Why is the clarinet the only woodwind instrument where the French and German designs are both thriving? (Indeed, is this true....)
- Why did the clarinet, along with the other woodwind, develop modern-style keywork only in the middle of the nineteenth century - why not earlier?
- Why are plateau keys common on flute and oboe but rare on the clarinet?
Let's not try to answer these questions in this thread - they are intended to be things for Ryan to think about.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-16 20:10
Can we answer these questions?? It's a thread on clarinet history.
Ok I'll answer this one,
Why is the clarinet the only woodwind instrument where the French and German designs are both thriving? (Indeed, is this true....)
The clarinet is not the only woodwind instrument with two different designs. The oboe has two different systems, one being the Conservatoire which has the thumb plate the other, which I forgotten the name of, is without the thumb plate. These instruments are played in Germany and the Conservatoire is French and played in UK and possibly the US. Bassoons also have a French system and German system. The French system is only seen in France whereas the German system, for a change, is used worldwide. I did a gig with a chap playing French bassoon (in the UK) a few years ago now, it was interesting but that is a whole other story. The flute is the only woodwind that has a universal system. I think all the alternative systems are thriving in there respective countries.
Peter Cigleris
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ryan K
Date: 2008-11-16 20:56
Thank you for all the wonderful information, and resources.
Its greatly appreciated. The food for thought questions are especially wonderful. I'll get back in a few weeks with my progress.
I'm also writing a composition for clarinet and piano for this project. I'll be sure to post that as well.
Ryan Karr
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-16 21:43
Norbert wrote:
<<Why did the clarinet, along with the other woodwind, develop modern-style keywork only in the middle of the nineteenth century - why not earlier?>>
Answer: Because early clarinets used felt pads, which were somewhat leaky. This limited the number of keys you could have on a clarinet, because with too many holes covered with felt pads, the air leakage would be too great. Modern keywork followed the invention of air-tight pads.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-16 22:03
"The oboe has two different systems, one being the Conservatoire which has the thumb plate the other, which I forgotten the name of, is without the thumb plate."
Just a quick correction there Peter, oboes are mostly built as conservatoire system (without thumbplate), in the UK there's dual system (conservatoire + added thumbplate) and pure thumbplate (where Bb and C are made mainly with the thumbplate and duplicated by the side key) and other regional variations of keywork (ring keys, plateau keys, fully automatic 8ves, conservatoire 1-2-3 mech, low B-C link, Prestini system, etc.) making them perhaps the most individual and non-universal woodwind instrument, add to that the 'Wiener Oboe' which is of a Germanic design and still played in the Viennese orchestras and rarely seen elswhere.
Flutes have a basic design (Boehm system) but also many regional and individual variations are available - some players prefer inline keys, some offset keys, some open-hole, some covered hole, some low B footjoint, some low C footjoint, some high G-A trill, some C# trill, some E mech, some Reform lip plate, some soldered toneholes, some drawn toneholes, some drawn tubing, some seamed tubing, some open G#, some reversed thumb key, some Murray system, wooden headjoints, wooden bodies, all manner of alloys ... the list goes on.
Saxes are perhaps the only woodwind instruments being built today that have a standardised keywork design with no regional variations, be them built in Mexico, USA, France, Germany, Czech Republic, Japan, Taiwan and China.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: NorbertTheParrot
Date: 2008-11-16 23:06
I really didn't want my "Why?" questions answered here - they were things for Ryan to think about and research.
But I think mrn's answer to my question "Why did the clarinet, along with the other woodwind, develop modern-style keywork only in the middle of the nineteenth century - why not earlier?" - "because felt pads were leaky" - is too facile.
The modern clarinet - or modern woodwind in general - required several innovations to make it practicable. I don't believe that the leak-proof pad was the most important, or most difficult of these innovations. Moreover, the leak-proof pad preceded the Boehm clarinet by decades.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-11-16 23:47
Chris,
Thanks for the update on the oboes, I'll be able to impress my oboe playing friends when I next see them. Better than talking about reeds with them.
Norbert, I agree with you regarding Mrn's statement regarding "leaky" felt pads. This is really not the case. I my experience playing classical clarinets I can say that they are quite air tight and don't leak. I think mostly leather was used for pads in those days which were seated on felt or something similar. I could check my original Millhouse C clarinet from 1799/1800 but I really don't want to destroy those pads as everything on it is original but, I can certainly say that the top of the pad is leather.
The main reason for the development of woodwinds in terms of keywork and bore size etc. was due to the expansion of the orchestra to accomodate the 'Romantic' ideal. Composers such as Beethoven (9th Sym), Berlioz (Symphonie Fantasique, written only a couple years after Beethoven's 9th) and Schubert (9th Sym 'Great') pushed the boundaries in a bid to create their own voice which included a more chromatic harmony and larger forces. Haydn's and to a certain extent Mozart's woodwinds, who were undergoing development, would not be heard over 4 horns, 3 trombones and ophicelde.
I'm sure Ryan's a smart kid and he'll have his own questions to ask.
Peter Cigleris
Post Edited (2008-11-17 00:15)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-17 00:20
NorbertTheParrot wrote:
> But I think mrn's answer to my question "Why did the clarinet,
> along with the other woodwind, develop modern-style keywork
> only in the middle of the nineteenth century - why not
> earlier?" - "because felt pads were leaky" - is too facile.
>
> The modern clarinet - or modern woodwind in general - required
> several innovations to make it practicable. I don't believe
> that the leak-proof pad was the most important, or most
> difficult of these innovations. Moreover, the leak-proof pad
> preceded the Boehm clarinet by decades.
But the question was regarding "modern-style" keywork, not the Boehm-system clarinet.
Iwan Mueller, who invented the air-tight pad, also developed a clarinet with 13 keys in the early 1800s (1809, I think)--I consider this to be the first clarinet with "modern keywork" (i.e., the first with a keywork design resembling present-day clarinets). The air-tight pad made this possible. Present-day Oehler-system clarinets played in Germany and Albert system clarinets are modified versions of this 13 key Mueller clarinet. They have more keys, of course, but the basic design is essentially the same.
The Boehm system (which has 17 keys--only 4 more than Mueller's clarinet) was developed after the Mueller system (but before Oehler and Albert made their improvements to the Mueller system) and had other innovations, but the critical invention to making both the German system clarinets and the Boehm clarinets (and any other system with more than a handful of keys) possible was air-tight pads (and the raised rim around the tone hole to go with them).
Post Edited (2008-11-17 00:32)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-18 03:27
Peter wrote:
<<Norbert, I agree with you regarding Mrn's statement regarding "leaky" felt pads. This is really not the case. I my experience playing classical clarinets I can say that they are quite air tight and don't leak. I think mostly leather was used for pads in those days which were seated on felt or something similar.>>
Peter, I didn't see your post before writing the one just above this one.
I certainly don't question what you yourself have experienced in playing historical instrument, but I have read over and over again in different places that early clarinets used felt pads (also flat pieces of leather were used and had similar problems), that the "stuffed pad" was Mueller's invention, and that the unreliability sealing of felt and flat leather pads (overcome by the invention of stuffed/bladder pads and countersunk toneholes) was a major impediment (if not the primary impediment) to increasing the number of keys on a clarinet. I didn't make this up myself--I'm just repeating what I read.
Maybe a better answer is simply that Mueller invented modern keywork in the early 1800s, because he did more than just invent the bladder pad and countersunk tone holes:
"Significantly, all the keys on Muller-system instruments were mounted by means of pillars attached to small oval plates screwed to the instrument body. Keys were held between the pillars by means of small screws which worked as axles. By 1820 most French instrument-makers began to use this design, unlike makers elsewhere who continued with wooden blocks or metal saddles. For pads, Mueller abandoned flat pieces of leather, substituting instead pads of soft, thin leather stuffed with wool, inserted into round, shallow cups soldered to the key shanks. The pads closed against countersunk holes, providing a seal considerably more reliable than the old design. Today's key design comes as a result of Mueller's innovations, which were also adopted by makers of flutes, oboes, and bassoons." -- From "The Clarinet" by Eric Hoeprich, p. 133.
See also:
http://www.the-clarinets.net/clarinet-history.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mueller
I have also read that Mueller invented the metal thumb rest as well as the metal screw ligature.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-11-18 10:23
When you mention countersunk toneholes, are they the same as what we have now (with the sharp edge on the bedplace for pads to seat onto), or are they countersunk by reaming into the wood to leave a hole with a level edge (like a crater with a hole in the middle or like undercut toneholes but the wrong way round)?
Reason I've said that is because I've got an old Clementi 8-key flute here where all the pad seat into toneholes with the tops bored into the joint (looks like they've been cut with a ball fraise) rather than cut and levelled tonehole bedplaces as we see nowadays. I wonder if clarinets ever had this style of countersunk tonehole - it does mean you need domed pads (nearly spherical) that seat all around their edge rather than the pad seating centrally onto the tonehole with the edges of the pad free.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
Independent Woodwind Repair Specialist
Oboes, Clarinets and Saxes
NOT A MEMBER OF N.A.M.I.R.
The opinions I express are my own.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: kenabbott
Date: 2008-11-20 12:58
I thought Mark Charette invented the clarinet, as well as all fingering systems ever created. Kind of a Kim Jong-Il of the grenadilla. Are you telling me that's not true?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-11-20 13:03
kenabbott wrote:
> I thought Mark Charette invented the clarinet, as well as all
> fingering systems ever created. Kind of a Kim Jong-Il of the
> grenadilla. Are you telling me that's not true?
Says Ken, hiding out in Hong Kong to avoid the toads raining from the clouds ... 
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: mrn
Date: 2008-11-20 14:47
Chris P wrote:
<<When you mention countersunk toneholes, are they the same as what we have now (with the sharp edge on the bedplace for pads to seat onto), or are they countersunk by reaming into the wood to leave a hole with a level edge (like a crater with a hole in the middle or like undercut toneholes but the wrong way round)?>>
I think it's the former (or close to it, anyway). Albert Rice, in "The Clarinet in the Classical Era," says, "The pads [Mueller's pads] required a round, hollow cup (called a salt spoon) soldered to the shank with the corresponding tone holes countersunk, leaving a raised wood rim for the pad to rest upon."
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Tony Beck
Date: 2008-11-20 17:31
Another unique thing about the clarinet world is that you often need multiple clarinets for a single composition. Symphonie Fantastic requires 4(!), A, Bb, C and Eb. That's like having the concertmaster switch from violin to viola to cello during the performance. Trumpet players occasionally switch off, but nothing like a clarinetist is expected to do.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
