 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-08-12 02:38
I have searched the archives and have a pretty good idea now about the relationship between reeds and mouthpieces. I know that, in general, we should size the reed to the mouthpiece. Also I believe I’m right in that, to a degree, the more open the mp (facing lengths being equal, say) a softer reed is required, and the more closed the mp, a larger reed size may be used. I also believe (from what I've read here) that beginners should not choose a very open mp to start with; conversely, they should choose a fairly closed mp with proper size reed for that mp.
In keeping with the above, would you advise beginners to:
(A) Strive for good sound (tone) by using a harder reed even though the embouchure suffers, and it is much harder to play correctly for any length of time before tiring out, or
(B) Settle for a more mediocre tone by playing a softer reed set-up, but gain from being able to practice significantly longer by not tiring out the chops so fast?
I personally would like to think that (B) would be the way to go. I have tried both ways, and even though the quality of the sound (tones) is not as good with softer reeds, I find I can practice much longer at a sitting, and with less effort in doing so.
What would you suggest is a "happy medium"?
As usual, I certainly do appreciate this forum and all the information I gain from it.
CarlT
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-12 02:56
Hello Carl,
Would it frustrate you to know that I can't even tell you what most of my students are playing reed-wise? (within reason...if it's really not working I make them change)
Tone is not determined by the reed (or mouthpiece/barrel/etc/etc/etc) it is determined by the player. The equipment does subtlety alter the general sound...but the fact of the matter is that equipment should either hinder or facilitate your individual sound...not be the determinator of it.
I'm not implying that I can make my sound easily on ANY reed...just that your questions are not as reed-dependent as your questions imply.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: russjm
Date: 2008-08-12 07:45
My understanding is that the more open the mouthpiece, the thicker the reed. In other words, Vandoren B45 (open) 3, 3 1/2 reed or a Vandoren 5RV Lyre (more closed) a 2 or 2 1/2 reed is required. The smaller appeture and softer reed are easier for students.
Edit: I just read up on this on the Vandoren website, and it's the complete opposite of what I've said above, typical. I guess the moral of that tale is not to listen to a friend who 'used' to play the clarinet!
Post Edited (2008-08-12 08:31)
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Author: feadog79
Date: 2008-08-12 11:48
Too soft a reed on too close a tip can close up against the mouthpiece, effectively stopping any sound whatsoever. That's why Vandoren's website recommends softer reeds for a more open mouthpiece.
JW
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2008-08-12 12:19
I think you're on the right track, the idea is to allow for more practice time.
With a resistant setup (very open tip or very stiff reed), beginning players will tire prior to learning new skills. Something down the middle of the alley plays best, and will serve for a long time.
Heavier reeds don't necessarily make for better players. It comes down to facility with what the player uses, every day.
It bears mentioning to beginning players (particularly the very young), that 20 minutes every day is better than 2 hours on Saturday alone.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-08-12 12:47
> Too soft a reed on too close a tip can close up against the mouthpiece,
> effectively stopping any sound whatsoever.
Depending on the skills and/or the musicality of the player, this can be a very desirable effect. ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
--
Ben
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Author: russjm
Date: 2008-08-12 14:05
Well personally I've hopefully got both angles covered, with a Vandoren B45 currently on my Clarinet, and a 5RV Lyre on the way. I'll try some different reeds when the 5RV arrives.
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-08-12 16:27
russjm,
I may be wrong but i thought that the more open, the softer the reed needed to be to make contact with the face easily. The more closed a mouthpiece is, the harder/thicker reed needs to be so that it won't stay closed on the mp face.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-08-12 16:36
Ryder wrote:
> the harder/thicker
Higher numbered reeds within the same model and brand are NOT thicker.
The external dimensions are identical whether it is a V12 #2.5 or a V12 #5.
Reeds are graded by the firmness, or lack of firmness of the cane, NOT by thickness.
...GBK
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2008-08-12 18:57
To add to what GBK stated, it's the strength (firmness) of the reed which gives us the relative numerical value. All Bb clarinet reeds are approximately the same size.
Jeff
“Everyone discovers their own way of destroying themselves, and some people choose the clarinet.” Kalman Opperman, 1919-2010
"A drummer is a musician's best friend."
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Author: russjm
Date: 2008-08-12 19:36
My brain hurts
It took me 20 years to find a set of bass strings I was happy with, god help me when it comes to reeds.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-12 19:40
It's actually the stiffness rather than the strength or firmness (hardness). All, for instance, vandoren V12 (for example) reeds are the same dimensions and are tested at finish for stiffness at which time they are given their stiffness number.
Use of the term "hard" or "soft" are used commonly but it's actually stiffness that is the key. And some people use the term flexural strength to confuse the matter further.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Michael E. Shultz
Date: 2008-08-12 21:23
Both mouthpiece tip opening and facing length affect reed choice. As has been stated, a larger tip opening requires a softer reed. A shorter facing length also requires a softer reed.
If you just want to impress people with the strength of your reed, you would choose a mouthpiece with a small tip opening and a long facing length. Since everything is a compromise, however, this setup might not be the best choice.
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
Groucho Marx
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2008-08-13 03:00
My personal opinion is that one should never deliberately play with a bad tone. Back down on the reed strength until you get a good, clear tone on whatever mouthpiece you're on ... if you're using a mouthpiece that requires a stiffer reed and you're unable to control a stiff reed and/or produce a clear tone on the stiff reed required by that mouthpiece then you're using the wrong mouthpiece.
Beginners should make things easier on themselves by using a beginner setup - a forgiving mouthpiece and a softer reed, allowing a) longer practice times and b) good tone. As they build up skill, they can inch up in reed strength until they have tapped out the possibilities of the student mouthpiece. At that point, it's time for an intermediate mouthpiece. A good teacher should be able to watch this progress and keep the student informed. I don't think stiff reeds = better player.
I play much "softer" reeds than most people would recommend after so many years playing, but I get a great tone, no buzzing, and I can hit the high notes every time.
Just my opinion... I'm not a professional, I just play a few pit shows a year for peanuts... which keeps me in reeds.
I'm sure you'll hear more opinions shortly ...
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Author: mrn
Date: 2008-08-13 21:07
GBK wrote:
> Ryder wrote:
>> the harder/thicker
> Higher numbered reeds within the same model and brand are NOT thicker.
> The external dimensions are identical whether it is a V12 #2.5 or a V12 #5.
Until I get through with them...then the higher numbered ones are thinner than the lower numbered ones.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2008-08-22 14:37
On a closer facing, you will need a harder reed than on an open one, assuming the internal dimensions are the same. So a B45 will require a softer reed than a 5RV.
Chris Hill
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Author: TonkaToy
Date: 2008-08-22 17:01
Not to be argumentative, but I think your original premise is incorrect.
"(B) Settle for a more mediocre tone by playing a softer reed set-up, but gain from being able to practice significantly longer by not tiring out the chops so fast?"
Why would you think that a softer reed is in any way tied to a "mediocre" tone?
With the appropriate mouthpiece and player a softer reed can produce a beautiful sound.
As I've gotten older I've realized that reed strength is not a contest. You're not "muy macho" if you use a 5 or 6 or 7. I'm looking for a setup that allows a flexible, free blowing, centered sound that allows me to play in the upper register (in tune), and articulate well.
Additionally, neither of my main teachers (who were major symphony players) played a setup with a particularly hard reed and closed mouthpiece. I was just too stupid at the time to understand that they spent a lot of time with a clarinet jammed in their mouth and were looking for something that allowed them to deliver the sound they heard in their head, physically play what they needed to play, and not be worn to pulp at the end of the day.
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Author: CarlT
Date: 2008-08-22 18:51
Mark and GBK, I did not "revive" this old post but feel obligated to respond, especially to TonkaToy, who wrote,
"Why would you think that a softer reed is in any way tied to a "mediocre" tone?"
Okay, good reasoning, TonkaToy. What I should have said was that sometimes, for me anyway, a low numbered (soft) reed is impossible for me to blow a good B and C above the staff (top of clarion register) with my Fobes Debut beginner mp. It simply closes up. So I have to use at least a 2 1/2 (Vandoren) to be able to do that. Also the tone is quite bad (even I can detect that, compared to the 2 1/2 reed. Yes, I can use a more open mp (say a 5RV Lyre, which I have), but still have a bit of a problem with my embouchure. I have tried #2 Rico's with bad results.
I will admit that I have not tried a #2 VD reed yet (my local store is out of them temporarily, and I hate to order a whole box, not being sure of them yet), so once I get one, I will try that size and see if I can get a good sound, especially at the top of the clarion.
I certainly don't wish to be macho about this. If I could play a 1-1/2 and be any good, I would do so. I think one of my problems is that by 4 months of playing every day, I would think my embouchure muscles should be very strong. Alas, they are still weak, as I find I can only hold out for about 15 minutes before having to stop for awhile. I think I am just very impatient, but I still have not lost any enthusiasm, and I will overcome this. I'm optimistic about the #2 reed being a "happy medium" for me.
Thanks for your posts.
CarlT
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-22 19:07
FWIW, with total beginners, I usually have them play the Fobes Debut mouthpiece with Rico 2.5's, switching to Vandoren 2.5's within 4-7 weeks.
Each individual is different, however, and the best news is that you aren't being deterred!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: BobD
Date: 2008-08-22 21:57
Tobin....I don't understand the reasoning behind going from a Rico 2.5 to a vd 2.5. Would you please explan? (I don't play Ricos)
Bob Draznik
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-08-22 21:58
i start beginners on a Debut with a Vandoren traditional (blue box) #3. 0.
Seems to work well for most of them.
never give up...
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: russjm
Date: 2008-08-23 07:54
Tobin....I don't understand the reasoning behind going from a Rico 2.5 to a vd 2.5. Would you please explan? (I don't play Ricos)
Bob, in my limited experience, I've certainly found that Vandoren reeds are stiffer than Rico ones generally, so moving from a Rico 2.5 to a VD 2.5 would be a small step up, simillar to going up to a Rico 3 maybe.
Having played the Vandoren 5RV Lyre for a week, I've ended up with a Vandoren 1.5 reed in it. With this reed, I get a nice even tone, and find it really easy to play, and I'm getting a nice vibrato with it too. This however seems to go against what everyone says, in that it's a closed mouthpiece, with a soft reed. I guess as time goes on, I'll increase the reed strength, but for now, this seems to work for me.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-08-23 14:19
"Tobin....I don't understand the reasoning behind going from a Rico 2.5 to a vd 2.5. Would you please explan? (I don't play Ricos)"
Hello Bob,
Russjm has it right. Vandoren reeds are stiffer than the first tier Ricos. A VD 2.5 is much closer to a Rico 3 (and some of them might as well be!). So the student makes a step up not only in reed strength but in quality as well.
Russjm: I'm glad you've found what works for you! Now you can put all your attention into having some fun,
James
Gnothi Seauton
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