 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-24 10:08
Good Day,
I have recently bought a Lyrique low C bass clarinet from Ridenour Clarinet Products. This is the first bass clarinet I have ever owned, and the first low C bass I have ever played. It is a very nice bass clarinet for sure, but I have a couple of problems with it, and would like to ask any bass clarinet people out there for some advice.
First of all, there seems to be a problem with the lower register vent not closing properly when playing from clarion E upwards. At first I thought it might be the upper register vent that didn’t open far enough, but after asking Tom Ridenour about it, he suggested to try and slightly loosen the adjustment screw on the bridge key between the bottom and top joint of the instrument. I have tried this and it does help, but something else that I have also found is that it's a lot easier to play from clarion E upwards if the bridge keys are NOT exactly in alignment. I think it's the lower joint that needs to be turned quite a bit clockwise off from straight alignment to get the best result. I would have thought that the bridge keys ought to be more or less in alignment and that the clarinet would play best when this is the case, but this is definitely not so on this bass clarinet. Is this standard on all low C bass clarinets, or is it just this particular one that's a bit peculiar in this respect? I should also mention here that even when the bass clarinet is at its best, clarion F and F sharp are still a bit weak and a bit harder to play than the other notes in that register, especially if starting a phrase on any of these notes. Tom Ridenour did also suggest that if I can’t get things to work as they should, I should take it to a qualified technician. I might have to do that, although it seems a shame to have to take a brand new instrument to be adjusted, but it might have to come to that.
I also have problems playing from altissimo E upwards using standard clarinet fingerings, and can only get the notes from altissimo E to A if I’m overblowing using clarion G to C fingerings. This is not particularly difficult in terms of getting the right pitch, but I would still like to use normal fingerings. That might not be possible, but then maybe it’s just a question of practice? Is there a fingering chart for the altissimo range on bass clarinets somewhere, or does anyone have any suggestions on this? And what about altissimo A sharp, B and C? Would they be played with same fingerings as on standard B flat clarinet? I can sort of get these notes using standard fingerings, but they are out of tune (to put it mildly).
Finally, there’s the keywork layout, and some of it I’m not very happy about to be honest. Low D, D flat and C can be played using the right hand thumb and this is perfectly fine. It did take a bit of practice to get the hang of it, but I don’t have any problems playing the bottom notes now. My main complaint in this respect is the fact that there is no left hand F/C key on this bass clarinet, instead there is a left hand low D, which to me seems a bit useless. A left hand F/C key would have been a lot more useful in this position, and if you wanted another low D key, wouldn’t it make more sense to put it right above the low E flat key? I presume that it should be possible for a technician to make the necessary amendments, but I suspect it might be very expensive to make such extensive alterations. I would probably not have bought this bass clarinet if I had known how the keys were arranged at the bottom of the instrument. It never entered my mind to ask about this, because I automatically assumed that there would be two F/C keys, one for each hand, and that the last three bottom notes - D, D flat and C – would be played using the right hand thumb and an auxiliary key above the low E flat key. The keywork must be different on different makes of low C bass clarinets, because on pictures of various bass clarinets I’ve seen, there are six keys for the right hand little finger, whereas on this one there is only five (with low D unfortunately occupying the space where I expected to find a left hand F/C key).
Now my question is this: does anyone know if it’s possible to take the left hand low D off (and possibly put another on just above low E flat) and put on a left hand F/C key instead? I presume this must be possible, but probably rather expensive. If it is possible, does anyone have any idea how much it is likely to cost? If it’s not too expensive to make such an extensive alteration, I might actually do it, and I am probably going to have to take it to a technician to have the register key mechanism looked at anyway.
I live in the UK by the way, so if anyone over here knows of any techs who are good at bass clarinets I’d be very grateful for any info, and also any guesses as to how much it might cost to alter the keywork as outlined above.
You might say that it’s a bit foolish of me buying a bass clarinet from the US of A given the fact that I live in the UK, and you’d probably be right about that, but the deed is done and I just have to make the best of it now.
I would like to say though, that when I do manage to align the joints and bridge keys just right, this bass clarinet is a joy to play, in fact quite easy and responsive, with a really beautiful sound, and a lot more powerful than I had thought (which is a good thing). It also seems to play very well in tune, but only when I use the little mechanism on the neck to make the neck a bit longer, otherwise it’s a bit on the sharp side.
Whether or not I would recommend it is a different matter though, because I don’t really have the necessary expertise to make any recommendations one way or another. I have only limited experience with bass clarinets, and in any case am only a moderately good amateur clarinettist anyway, so my opinions account for very little.
Sorry, this got a bit too long-winded, but thanks for taking the time to read it, and any comments or suggestions you might have regarding the above issues would be most welcome.
Cheers,
Pathik
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2008-07-24 10:33
Do you roll your left index finger (LH1) down for the altissimo keeping the fingerplate closed but uncovering the aperture, or lift LH1 completely off the fingerplate?
You may find the lower altissimo will speak easier and be better in tune (from D-F) using the standard fingerings, but rolling LH1 down instead of lifting.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-07-24 11:10
With the very high price of bass clarinets these days, I had hoped the Ridenour Low C bass would be an affordable alternative for many. I was fortunate enough to buy a Buffet shortly before the big price increase in the States, but I was asked to try the Ridenour to review it for friends. I didn't have a problem with the material, but it was a horrendously out-of-tune bass even after lengthening the neck. The transition from clarion to throat tones was awful. What was worse, however, was the keywork. It was remarkably cheap and flimsy. It was so out of adjustment, but Tom did not seem to care much. When I expressed this as a concern, he did the typical thing of arguing his way around the problem and I was forced to be disappointed in what was a hopeful venture.
Pathik, I'm not sure exactly what you can do, but you should be able to improve the situation with the service Tom offers or by finding someone in the UK to fix the issue or make it better. I'm still hopeful it can play well when such issues are alleviated.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-24 11:32
Chris P:
Thanks for your suggestion. I haven't tried this, as it never entered my mind that it could make any difference, so will check it out today.
J. J.:
Thanks for your comments. Did you try the Lyrique 925C low C bass, which is his current model, and what I have bought, or was it one of the older models? I think they were called something else previously, but the name escapes me at the moment. When I first got in touch with them, they mentioned that they had had a previous model that was not very good in terms of keywork, but that the keywork on the Lyrique 925C had been greatly improved. Actually, I don't mind the keywork on it at all, as it feels quite comfortable to me, and certainly not flimsy. My only problem with the keywork is the layout of it at the bottom of the instrument, as explained in my original post.
Sending it back to Tom Ridenour for adjustments or repair is not really an option, because it would be too expensive. I would have to pay for carriage both ways, and there's always the chance I would have to pay another £120 to have it imported into the UK again, so I would have to find someone here in the UK.
The only thing that seems to be in a real need to be fixed on it is that the register key mechanism doesn't seem to operate at its optimum. The keywork layout issue is not something that is a fault with the bass clarinet, it's just that I personally would like different keywork layout.....if I can afford it!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-07-24 14:05
I've never played a Lyrique instrument so I can't give an honest opinion but I have learned a long time ago that the saying "You get what you pay for" has held true my whole life. I would take Tom's advise though, take it to a good tech and don't leave until they get it to play as well as it can. If it is made of soft metal you will have to be extra careful when putting it together and in it's case. ESP www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Mozart
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-24 14:38
I have no problem with my clarion register on my 925c, but a colleague with a 925e has a similar situation as yours. He has to very carefully align the joints. I've also noticed that the 925 in general is more sensitive to mouthpiece selection than my Selmer (Paris). Try some different mouthpieces to see if the clarion register opens up.
The altissimo fingerings do get a bit tricky. I've had to use different fingerings for every bass I've owned. What I've settled on lately is using the "overblown" notes that you mentioned. On the extreme notes, they are fortunately sharp rather than flat, so I just add a finger or two to bring them down - or just lip them down.
The missing left pinky F/C is a bit of a mystery. Mine is in a comfortable place, and I really like the low D being right next to it. Since this is your first low-C bass, I think you should spend some time getting used to it before changing any keys. The same colleague I mentioned above made several key modifications to his 925e that make it difficult for me to play. I haven't changed a thing (except one spring) on mine, and it feels very comfortable.
I'm sure you're going to really enjoy this horn.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2008-07-24 16:54
Pathik, it is possible that I didn't play the current model. I'm not really sure, but what I do know is that my experience is that Tom will pretty much never admit to a fault or imperfection until, perhaps, an improvement has been put into place. His Bb and A instruments have evolved plenty, so its likely that the keywork has been improved. How much is the real question.
I do hope you can get that sorted, however, because the cost of other bass clarinets has made them not a worthwhile investment for the majority of players. I think that like his Lyrique Bb and A, this bass may be a good option for a particular market.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-24 18:04
LonDear,
thanks very much for your post. I think you might have put me on the right track to solving the keywork problem I have described. You said : "The missing left pinky F/C is a bit of a mystery. Mine is in a comfortable place, and I really like the low D being right next to it." This made me think about this again, because I assume here that you mean you have a left F/C and a low D right next to each other....? So I am also assuming that you have a total of five keys for your left hand pinky. Well, the odd thing is that on mine there are actually five keys on the left hand side, but two of them are on top of each other!!!
The top one is about 10 cm long, and is fastened onto a rod that extends down to where the right hand L/C is, so I presume that this one is the actual F/C left hand key....only it's about half a cm short to stay clear of the bottom key!!! The bottom one is about 28 cm long and is part of a linked system of three rods that enables this key to produce low D.
These keys were like this right from when I opened the case and first looked at the bass clarinet, and I did wonder about it, because it just didn't look right. So maybe they are actually supposed to be next to one another, like it would appear to be on yours? That would make a lot more sense!
However, when I press the top one, which is a bit bigger than the bottom one, and which I assume ought to give me F/C, I get low D, which is hardly surprising given that it is on top of the other one, which of course also produces low D. This is why I drew the conclusion that there's no left hand F/C on this bass clarinet, but I still couldn't understand why there would be two left hand keys for the same note!
Well, I'm truly mystified by this now, and don't really know what the answer is, short of taking it to a tech and get it sorted out. I hope my description of the left hand side pinky keys makes sense, and if you could respond when you have the time and tell me if, compared to your bass clarinet, you think that there is actually a fault in the manufacturing of my bass clarinet, I would be very grateful. Thanks.
Pathik
Post Edited (2008-07-24 18:07)
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-24 20:31
It sounds to me like either the F/C key, the D key or both are bent or possibly they were not installed correctly at the factory. If you have a digital camera and can post a picture of the left-hand pinky cluster, perhaps we can tell. A repair tech should also be able to tell -- pretty quickly I would think and, if all the keys need are bending, the repair probably won't be too expensive.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-24 21:12
Attachment: left hand cluster.JPG (424k)
Here's a picture of the left hand pinky cluster, which shows what I mean by one key being on top of the other. Now that I've started looking at this in a different way and examined it more closely, it does certainly look as if the underneath key (D key) has been bent down by the one on top. You might not be able to see that from the photo, but something has gone wrong there. The key on top (F/C key) seems to me to be too short, but it seems rather far-fetched that Tom Ridenour would put a key on that's too short, so I don't know what to make of this. Have a look and see what you think. Thanks for your help.
Pathik
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2008-07-24 21:37
It looks to me like the key on top has been bent way over. I suspect it should be at least beside and perhaps parallel to the D key underneath. I think a repair tech should be able to sort it out for you fairly easily though it might require removing a few keys.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Ryder
Date: 2008-07-24 21:46
"I might have to do that, although it seems a shame to have to take a brand new instrument to be adjusted, but it might have to come to that."
Realize that most clarinets, bass included, could use adjustment when new. This type of stuff is not looked at closely in the factory, at least in most cases.
____________________
Ryder Naymik
San Antonio, Texas
"We pracice the way we want to perform, that way when we perform it's just like we practiced"
Post Edited (2008-07-24 21:47)
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Author: Fred
Date: 2008-07-25 00:41
Shipping can do ugly things to instruments as well. Let's hope it was that.
FWIW, regarding having to pay duty again to get your instrument back from overseas, I experienced that after selling an instrument to a French gentleman and then taking it back after it was damaged in shipping. It cost me about $100 in Customs (USA) to get my own clarinet back. Not one of my fondest memories . . .
I learned after the fact that there is a form for USPS shipping - you might have a similar one - that I could have filled out at the time of initial shipping indicating that it would be coming back to me. This would have excluded the clarinet from any duty. Of course, I had no idea at the time that it wuld be returned, but at least now I know that the form exists.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-25 01:38
Great picture Pathik. It very clearly shows that your D key has been bent down bell-ward and is covering the F/C key. If you can carefully press down only the F/C key you will be pleasantly surprised that that particular key is in the right place. I'm sure that Tom would take care of this with no problem, but this looks like a fix that could be handled easily by a local tech. I'm on the road right now with only soprano clarinets, but when I get back I can send you a picture of my left pinky cluster that you can show your tech. Send me an email on Saturday to remind me to send that off to you. Shipping is really tough on large clarinets, even the best of them. Come to think of it, since the left cluster is jammed, there is a good possibility that the linkage between the upper and lower joints might be bent and affecting the register switches. Let's keep in touch and compare pictures of the linkage and see if we can figure out what might be amiss there also. My pro Selmer arrived with a bent linkage, and that made the clarion just maddening - a $15 checkup turned it into perfection. Hang in there; the 925 is a work of art.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-25 01:41
One more thing to have checked is the spring size. The springs that Tom uses are top quality, but I found a .039 spring where a .045 fit better.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-25 07:07
Hi Pathik
1. Unless the instrument was designed and/or built especially bad then it should be possible to adjust the register mechanism to work fine when the joints are aligned. It's probably still out of adjustment even after you opened the bridge screw.
The clarion F and F# (or any clarion notes) being a little weaker is something that exist on some bass clarinets, but wait until the instrument is completely adjusted before deciding that. Although a slightly open lower register key affect the upper clarion notes (A, B, etc) more than the lower ones who use the same vent (E, F, etc).
2. Look at the key for the first finger of the left hand (which you press to play F#). Does it have a small hole in the middle (and possibly an extension)?
On every bass clarinet I've tried (there were many) it was impossible to play the altisimo notes with the same fingerings as soprano clarinet, usually from D# or E and above (but better to do this from D). You need to close the F# key I mentioned but leave the small hole open for those notes. If you don't have this small hole, you just need to close the key and basically just play the overtones.
Notes up tp approx. altisimo G are probably the same on all basses and the same as soprano clarinet (except the little open hole mentioned above), but I understand some higher altisimo notes can be different on different bass clarinets. I only briefly checked the fingerings I use on other basses and I think mostly they worked but I don't remember. So these are some suggestions that work on my instrument and possibly will work on yours.
I play all altisimo notes up to F# the same as soprano clarinet and pressing the first finger key leaving the little hole open (when not using any alternate fingerings like throat notes overtones).
The F# fingering I use the most is left hand thumb, register key, left hand middle finger, and first finger closing the key but leaving the little hole open.
G is same as F# but add right side Eb/Bb key.
G# is (I think, can't remember for sure atm) same as G but lift left hand middle finger.
A is same fingering as top clarion C (left thumb and reg key) but add right side Eb/Bb key, though this is slightly flat. A is also same fingering as altisimo F# above but lift left hand middle finger and add right side second (F# trill) key.
A# and B I can't remember now but can check later. It's easy enough to find them by checking different keys, mainly pressing or lifting left hand stack keys checking with right side keys (mainly lower two) and throat keys.
C is next overtone of the same fingering of the altisimo G.
After the C fingering C# and D are easy enough by lifiting middle finger and then first finger (completely) respectively.
3. You do have a left hand F/C key. It is the way Jack described (and opposite of how LonDear described it). The F/C key is covering the low D key so it looks like when you press it you also press the low D key, so get a D. Based on the distance of the keys from each other it looks like the F/C key got bent (you can notice how far it is from the C#/G# key).
As far as fixing all the problems, if I understand you correct you bought the instrument directly from Ridenour. I assume you have some sort of warrenty, and this is the type of things that it should cover (since it arrived like this). I would ask Ridenour about it. Does he have a dealer in the UK with a good repairer? If he does, maybe they can give the warrenty on his products (depending if the warrenty is from the store or the maker)?
If not, then what stores with good service do is let you repair it locally and they will refund you the cost of the repair (that's the good service I had from WW&BW). You should talk about this with whoever you bought the instrument from, but generally get an estimate for the cost of repairs first, so you don't pay a big bill and then have no help from the original seller.
LoDear wrote: "I'm sure that Tom would take care of this with no problem, but this looks like a fix that could be handled easily by a local tech."
This sounds like (probably unintentionally) implying that other more difficult problems couldn't be handled by repairers in the UK....
There are at least several excellent repairers in the UK. I'm sure there are more than what I know but here are a few that I would recommend. I have spoken with them (in some cases about very specific things in repair) and got a very good impression of them, plus seeing reviews of players who had repairs done by them. But I should give a disclaimer that I haven't actually seen their work in person. I have no idea which is closest to where you are.
Steve Howard http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk I think you'll have to email him for his address.
Griff (Dave Griffiths) http://www.dg-music.co.uk Seems that he is in Devon but sometimes work in London too.
Chris Peryagh (who posted above as Chris P). I'm not sure where he is and I don't think he has a website. He plays bass clarient too.
I've also heard very good things about Howarth in London and I'm sure there are other good repairers and if you post where you are maybe some UK posters can give closer recommendations.
Hope this helps.
Nitai
Post Edited (2008-07-25 08:50)
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Author: Steve L
Date: 2008-07-25 08:30
Hello Pathik,
If you have no one closer to have a look at it I can reccommend
http://www.aldersonwoodwind.co.uk
He is in Cantley near Doncaster and his prices are reasonable.
Steve
Post Edited (2008-07-25 08:31)
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-25 09:26
Steve,
Funny you should suggest Keith Alderson in Doncaster, because I've just spoken to him on the phone less than 10 minutes ago, and have agreed with him to bring him the bass clarinet tomorrow morning. He is based less than an hour's drive from where I live, so that's very convenient indeed. After speaking to him, I am confident that he will be able to repair my bass clarinet. I am now quite convinced that the damage must have been caused in transit, most likely by some careless customs official person. And just think I had to pay £120 to them just for them to mess it up like that! Well, maybe I shouldn't accuse anyone of anything, because I can't prove it, but Tom Ridenour would certainly not have sent off a bass clarinet that was in such a state, and I can't see it being damaged en route otherwise unless someone opened the box (a big job in itself) and started messing about.
Nitai,
Many thanks for your suggestions. The information about altissimo fingering on bass clarinet is great, and yes I do have that key with the little hole in it, and after testing it yesterday (Chris P suggested this to me yesterday, so thanks for that), I am happy to tell you that playing the altissimo register up to G is now very easy. Once I try to go above that, though, it all goes a bit banana-shaped (meaning sharp), and it's generally quite difficult to control the pitch. I'll try the fingerings you suggested for these very high notes and see if I can make any progress.
LonDear,
You might be right about the damaged keys probably having an adverse effect on the register key mechanism and bridge keys, so I'll see when I get it back from repair what it's like. I'd love to see a picture of the keys on yours, so I can compare. I'll be off just after 9 tomorrow morning to deliver the bass clarinet for repair, so probably won't have received it from you by then, but that's ok.
I am now confident that my bass clarinet will be restored to its optimum, so I am already looking forward to getting it back from repair. Many thanks to everybody who has contributed to this thread and offered helpful suggestions. It's been very useful to me to read your comments, because I've not only got to understand the main cause of the problems I have with my bass clarinet, but also learnt a few things about bass clarinets I didn't know before.
Cheers,
Pathik
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-25 14:45
Pathik,
Besides all of the mechanical problems with your bass clarinet, how does the instrumet sound?
I am also in the market for a bass clarinet. After starting at thread looking for recommendation about bass clarinets, I was pretty sure I wanted a Yamaha YCL-221 II, but that horn is only to low Eb. Now I am interested in finding more about the Ridenour low C bass clarinet.
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Author: nahoj
Date: 2008-07-25 16:38
Attachment: IMG_2724_small.jpg (177k)
Hi Pathik,
I see your problem will get solved. Good!
None the less, here's some more info. I heard Ridenour based his 'low' key work layout on the Leblanc contra's, which also have the low D left little finger and only 5 right little finger keys. (Ridenour used to work at Leblanc.) So I assume your key work should look like the one attached (from a Bb paperclip contra), except the the contra doesn't have the G#/D# left little finger key.
So indeed your F/C key is bent badly.
For altissimo fingerings, you can also check out http://kunst.no/lerstad/altissimo.html
Please let us know how you experience your instrument after the repair. I have high hopes for this redesigned Lyrique low C -- after hearing so many good things about his Lyrique soprano's -- to be a great and affordable alternative for the professional ones... Also to have similar key layout as the contra's I'm used to is a plus for me :-)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-07-25 23:26
Of course Pathik, with comments as disparaging as this, one must first consider the source(the ear) and the frame of reference of the source. If the frame of reference is a different instrument, notorious for both the frenzy of its supporters and their prejudices, the first consideration is the (ear) of the source.
Post Edited (2008-07-25 23:40)
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-07-25 23:34
Isn't it wonderful how one makes a personality judgement based on virtually nothing. These kinds of insufferable comments designed to malign and then taken back just as quickly are in themselves quite unfortunate. Ask a professional. This fellow is not really sure of much at all, is he?
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-26 00:42
Nitai said:
"LoDear wrote: "I'm sure that Tom would take care of this with no problem, but this looks like a fix that could be handled easily by a local tech."
This sounds like (probably unintentionally) implying that other more difficult problems couldn't be handled by repairers in the UK...."
I was not in the least maligning any repairer anywhere. The point was that such a repair should be much cheaper than the postage. The next few lines clarified this point, I'm almost sure.
Post Edited (2008-07-26 03:27)
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-26 02:29
Attachment: Left-Pinky-Cluster2.jpg (128k)
OK - I know that I'm still not in time, but I got the left cluster picture taken earlier than I expected. I tried to capture the linkage, but I need to figure out my macro mode.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-07-26 05:48
I will deliver the bass clarinet for repair today, and will post my comments on what it's like once I get it back. The problem with the bent and damaged keys is something that should hopefully be easily fixed by a qualified technician, so the end to this story might still be a very happy one.
LonDear,
Many thanks for posting the picture of the left hand pinky cluster of your bass clarinet. Yes, it certainly looks a lot better than mine! I'll print the picture and take it with me to the repair technician today.
S. Friedland,
I don't really understand your two posts above, but because you've used my name in one of them, I presume that you wanted to communicate something to me. It would therefore be good if you could explain what you are talking about, as I don't quite get what or who some of your comments actually refer to. I am especially puzzled by the phrases "comments as disparaging as this", "how one makes a personality judgement based on virtually nothing", "insufferable comments" and "This fellow is not really sure of much at all, is he?" Maybe it's just me being a bit dense, but a clarification of the above would be most welcome. Thanks.
Pathik
Post Edited (2008-07-26 05:55)
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2008-07-30 11:54
is anyone able to post some well-recorded soundfiles of the ridenour bassclarinet and a buffet or selmer for comparison??
Would tell us more then written words
Mechanics can be changed / adapted on your own conditions/premises/preferences wherever you live
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Author: S. Friedland
Date: 2008-07-30 15:28
Sure, I'll do it.You want the Bass Clarinet part from Daphnes and Chloe on my Ridenour, Selmer, and Buffet Bass, right? What about my Leblanc and my Patricola? I will get it to you immediately.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-31 03:49
Sherman, go for it! I'm sure you can crank out those tracks in a matter of minutes! NOT!
To the person that requested the recordings:
Recording a bass clarinet is not an easy task. I have some great mics for recording clarinets, but it requires multiple mics to capture all of the nuances of a bass. I could probably get a setup with a few LD condensers going and record some of the local Ridenours, Selmers and Buffets, but I don't see the point, especially when the sound clips would have to be in MP3 format.
If you're interested in a particular horn, just give a try. The internet has made it SO easy to audition music, but there is just no substitute for trying a professional instrument in person.
Sherman, would you agree?
(On a side note, Sherman, do you really have a Patricola bass?!!!)
Post Edited (2008-07-31 03:51)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-07-31 08:38
>> Recording a bass clarinet is not an easy task.
Maybe, but making a reasonable recording of it isn't especially difficult either. I have recordings made with a small recording device, with its inner microphone, that would be good for the type of comparison that is needed. Especially since it is comparing with a different instrument as opposed to with itself. Assuming the same equipment (mouthpiece/reed/microphone/etc.) I think a recording would actually be helpful. It doesn't have to be specific parts as S. Friedland suggested... it is very easy to realize what is best to play for such a comparison.
>> but it requires multiple mics to capture all of the nuances of a bass
Just for example, the worst recording I had done was with two absurdly expensive microphones. But even if you are right, a recording, no matter how good it is, will never give all the details that someone is able to notice when playing the instrument. But it is better than not having the recording. IMO the purpose of this recording is not to show nuances of each instrument, but to expose much bigger problems in case they exist, considering the price of the instrument.
>> just give a try
Just? Not if you are where shipping cost and tax will be so high that you can easily lose close to $1,000 if you decide you don't want to keep the instrument.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2008-07-31 09:58
the problem is shipment outside USA . When the transport company clears the instrument on trial with the wrong tax form, i have to pay TVA 21% and duty tax on ther instrument or they will not deliver the instrument . And when it is not to my taste and i want to send it back i lose the 21 % and duty.
And you don't have control over it . WHen usps sends the packet to europe , it can be delivered to my home by more then one belgian parcels company. ( the one that did win the bids for that day i believe ) You don't have control over that aspect , so you can't know beforehand whom you have to inform about the correct clearance method .
Still checking with customs ...
Some soundfiles would give a good idea about the sound quality of the instrument.
When sherman can confirm that overall the sound of the bass is very comparable to Buffet or Selmer , and indicate some differences , that would be interesting also .
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-07-31 21:42
OK buedsma, and clarni, you make compelling arguments to the try-before-you-buy model.
If we make a bboard-wide group effort we can probably put together a process to get some sound clips available to those who might benefit from them. I'm going to think in basic terms as you have described rather than thinking from the perspective of trying to produce CD quality audio.
These are just initial thoughts on guidelines, in need of refinement by others who may want this kind of information.
1. Agree on an exercise, etude or set of scales that can be played by a decent bassist. (Perhaps chromatic scales over all four octaves, one slurred, one tounged seems the simplest test. Not fast. Then a CM arpeggio.)
2. Agree on a format (MP3?) and bit rate (192?).
3. List the equipment used with the sound clip (brand/model of mic).
4. List the relative position and distance of the mic from the bass.
5. Describe your typical playing styles.
6. Keep the audio clips to 20 seconds. No more than 3 clips per instrument.
I'm willing to do a Selmer (Paris), a Lyrique 925c and a Lyrique 925e to get things started. I will probably do a single mic ADK A-51 at about 1m from the horn, about 1m above the floor.
What do you think? Please provide feedback on what kind of guidelines we should put in place for providing audio evaluations of basses.
I apologize for being insensitive to the international shipping issue. Amati has some really, really interesting instruments these days, but shipping stopped me cold from trying any. Orsi in Italy (not O&W in Canada) also has some crazy cool stuff, but again... shipping
Post Edited (2008-08-01 03:18)
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2008-08-01 08:54
LonDear, I think my idea of a recording is different. To compare different instruments, nothing but a comparison with everything identical but the instrument is relevant when comparing different instruments. Every recording by a different forum member would only be a comparison with itself, which is not useless, but there are already many recordings on CDs of bass clarinetists to hear at least some instruments (I have a few dozens), so they are not necessary.
It sounds like you are exactly in a position to do something very helpful. You might be surprised how many times people who can do those things simply don't, for whatever reason. I have enough equipment to do a reasonable recording, and if someone visits me with a different bass (sometimes happens) I can also do a comparison, though I think the main comparison that people are interested is between a professional model like a Buffet or Selmer and the considerably cheaper Ridenour.
What would help is exactly what you can do, an identical comparison of several different instruments, using the same equipment and conditions (both for the instrument and the recording). I personally will appreicate it if you can record this comparison and I would like to hear it. What model is your Selmer bass clarinet (and if it's a 33, approx. year it was made)?
To answer specifically to what you wrote:
1. Sorry if this is a little rude, but your suggestion isn't good enough for this comparison. It easily misses some of the most important stuff for checking a bass clarinet. During my experiments of bass clarinets (which you can read about on the Keepers forum) I found what I think would be very good to test, and have no problem writing and emailing it to you for your comparison. It would only take me a few minutes.
2. 192 mp3 is definitely good enough for this purpose.
3. You could list it, but it's not so relevant since it's the same for all instruments you compare.
4. Not so relevant for the same reason as in 3, but worth knowing.
5. Same as for 3, not relevant when only the instruments are compared.
It seems that 3, 4 and 5 are things you want to mention when the instruments are compared by different players, different recording conditions/equipment, or different mouthpiece/reed setup. But only comparison with all of those things being identical are relevant when comparison instruments with each other. Recordings by different forum members are not even something to consider for this purpose. For recording with things other the instrument not being identical, people can decide for themselves if certain things they hear are because of the instrument, player, mouthpiece, etc. or simply accept that they can't know.
6. These are random choices which I don't understand. The clips should take as long as it takes to play everything that is needed for the comparison (i.e. what I wrote in 1). My guess is that this would take a couple of minutes for each instrument. Optimally it is also best if each excercise is played by each instrument first, one after another, as opposed to a whole clip of all excercises on each instrument. You wouldn't believe how fast people can forget stuff like this, sometimes even in seconds.
But, seperate from this, any recording of the Lyrique bass clarinet would help since that's what a lot of people seem to be interested in. But since you can do a fair comparison I am interested in that.
So let me know if you want and I will happily email you the excercises.
Nitai
Post Edited (2008-08-02 09:04)
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2008-08-01 10:18
Keywork you can change if you don't like it . There are enough repairman willing to change some keys if you want too.
But sound comparison is something else : Example i own an older leblanc single register and a Bundy selmer. Leblanc sounds with more typical bassclarinet ring in the lower notes then the Bundy. For clarion i don't notice too much difference. Bundy is a bit better in that register till clarion G. But it's always just a description.
Comparing wood to plastic ( or hard rubber or whatever i should call it :-) )
The leblanc is more pleasing to me in the low notes. But when i play my plastic contra-alto , i have also a rather focused and ringing low register. So as some people already said : the lower the instrument , the less difference in sound you notice related to the used material. Or isn't there any difference , as some say ?
The goal for me is not an extremely detailed analysis : in that case i prefer to fly to the US myself. But for example the same tune with some slow ,fast , high and low notes combinations played could give some indications about sound quality -
So sherman's offer is very welcome. I'm only interested in sound, not in technical discussions. That's something for clarinet makers. I'm a player.
When the decision is a selmer of 7200,-euros or a ridenour of 2400,- euros for a non-professional player, a bit of ring more or less in the lower notes are not the primary argument to decide. And what's more : I hear the subtle differences for my present clarinets , but the other non-clarinet musicians don't hear the difference , or only so slightly that they think it's not important. What people hear , is different from what you as a player hear ( sound transfer through bones )
Maybe we could make a contest out of this : guess which instrument is played in which mp3 ??? Or youtube some excerpts - you can stay incognito if you don't want to be recognised on the net :-))
By the way , i didn't know there were different versions of the same bassclarinet from ridenour : Londear, What's the diference between 925c and 925e ??
If you need space for mp3 or video , i can reserve some space on a personal server on the net. I suppose this board can provide it as well.
I think more people from europe are reading this thread with interest.
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Author: Pathik
Date: 2008-08-02 09:03
Hi All,
I'm happy to report that I've collected my bass clarinet from a local
woodwind repairer who has fixed it, and it is now a very fine instrument
indeed. The damaged keys have been straightened out and put back into place,
and he also did some other adjustments, so that the bass clarinet now plays
easily across the entire range of the instrument. I'm really glad this has
been sorted out so easily and quickly - and he was very reasonable in terms
of payment as well! ("He" is Keith Alderson of Doncaster, England, for anyone in the area who might be interested.)
Best wishes,
Pathik
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-08-03 03:25
Hi Pathik, I'm so glad you got your new bass whipped into shape quickly. Enjoy!
buedsma, the 925e and 925c differ only in their range. My colleague's 925e goes to low Eb and my 925c goes to low C.
To those who are wanting to hear audio clips of basses, It sounds like my suggestions are way off the mark from what you're wanting to see and hear. If several people can agree on what material (exercises, etudes, solos, scales, whatever) would best represent a bass clarinet, and get it posted, I'll plop all of my basses in front of a mic and get them recorded (single mic at one meter), encoded and on the bboard. If we can't get several people engaged here, then perhaps we can move over to Walter's place where there are mostly bass (and larger) players.
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Author: buedsma
Date: 2008-08-03 10:50
londear,
please post your soundfiles for your different bassclarinets and don't hesitate. A 60sec registration with some long notes in the different registers and two,three fast runs are enough. I even doubt if fast runs will give any information to the person who's listening. Sound quality and even quality between registers is the most important aspect.
I suppose you can find some tunes or excerpts containing these requirements. Even the three diminished scales up and down in thirdth's and in octaves can tell a lot about sound, evenness etc
Best Regards
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-08-08 02:16
I will do some recordings, but I'm not going first. I'm a semi-pro, not a real pro. I have a day job and play woodwinds in the evening and weekends. My teaching days were long ago. One of the posters sent me some sheet music that we've been discussing and I'll record his suggested excerpts.
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Author: LonDear
Date: 2008-08-08 03:43
Attachment: basstest.mp3 (1889k)
OK, I lied, I'm going first. This is a real pathetic attempt to record my 925c. I just diddled around aimlessly to see if the mic in my PC can capture a bass. I would normally run a couple of LD condensors into a phantom powered recording deck. This recording was just very sloppily recorded into my notebook computer.
After I figure out the tech stuff I'll put a bit more effort into the playing.
Post Edited (2008-08-08 03:45)
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The Clarinet Pages
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