 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2008-12-25 19:17
Playin' an R13 B-flat using the original barrel with a B45 mouthpiece and Gonzalez reeds. The clarion register (especially the upper half of it) is always sharp on the tuner, especially after warming up. But If I pull out, then the throat tones are flat on the tuner.
Another 15 minutes of playing and now the clarion is even sharper and now I'm pulling out even more including the middle joint and the bell.
Dang it!
So which is worse, flat throat tones or a sharp clarion register?????????
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Author: MBrad
Date: 2008-12-25 19:42
If you were to leave equipment out of the question, you'll find it much easier to bring pitch down rather than up without sacrificing tone quality (you also get a lot more flexibility going down); so flat throat tones are probably worse, if you had to choose. The 13-series Vandoren mouthpieces run flatter than the regular--you might want to play around with different mouthpieces to find a better match for pitch. Which ones? Have fun!
Post Edited (2008-12-26 19:01)
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Author: pewd
Date: 2008-12-25 20:55
i agree with mark -
just for grins, try an M13-lyre or a M15 mouthpiece and see what happens
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2008-12-25 23:46
I don't see any #13 on the mouthpiece so I'm guessing it's a plain B45? I can't readily go out and try mouthpieces cos none of the music carry any decent inventory.
But how is it that one range of the instrument can be sharp and another flat?
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Author: Merlin_Williams
Date: 2008-12-26 00:08
The 13 series mouthpieces are supposed to work with Buffet clarinets at 440, as opposed to 442.
As for instruments being sharp in one register, and flat in another - mouthpiece selection, barrel selection, voicing and reed choice all can be factors. Combine two or more, and intonation can go all over the place.
My advice re: tuning is to tune your open G (second line) once you're warmed up, and see where things lie at that point.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-12-26 02:24
My experience is that the Series 13 versions are flatter (to bring a supposedly American A-440 more within reach). But my experience with them is also that they tend to make the throat notes flatter than other mouthpieces I've used. I've at one time or another tried most of the Series 13 Vandorens, and they all seem to act the same way on my equipment. When I tried a B-44 traditional version recently on a C clarinet that was giving me tuning problems, it was significantly sharper than the Series 13 B-44 I tried in the same time batch of trial mouthpieces.
Barrels can also have a great effect on throat intonation. Basically, anything that makes the general pitch of the clarinet lower is likely to affect the throat tones most. Sharpness in the upper clarion register is a standard clarinet problem that can sometimes, if it's extreme, be solved partly by changing the register tube or perhaps bringing the open register key pad closer to the hole (if response isn't adversely affected). If a mouthpiece or barrel change can bring it down enough (without making the throat notes flat) to be manageable by changing the oral shape or embouchure pressure, that's a normal enough problem that you may just need to learn to accommodate it.
It's possible also to bring the pitch of individual notes up by increasing the hole's undercutting, but I'd try mouthpiece and barrel changes before having that done - undercutting them can affect the note's tone quality and resistance, and I think modern R-13s already have had some undercutting done at the factory. Additional undercutting often helps when a note is both flat and stuffy.
When the instrument warms up and the clarion gets sharper, does the throat come up to the same degree (still flat, but the same, relative to the sharp clarion notes)? If so, it's just normal sharpening as the instrument warms up - if it's unmanageable you either need a longer barrel or tuning rings to allow you to pull the barrel out farther without creating a big space in the bore above the tenon. I know that lots of players and techs recommend pulling all the joints out slightly rather than pulling the barrel and/or mouthpiece out, since the effect of adding all the length at the top of the instrument is to make the throat notes flatter than the rest of the clarinet. But I've never felt comfortable having the middle joint not all the way together - it feels unstable and the 1-and-1 high B-flat may not work because the bridge key leverage is affected.
The major music supply outlets have web sites and trial policies if you don't have a local source of mouthpieces and barrels to try. Check the return policies - trial services generally aren't free, but the cost isn't so great if you actually buy something.
Karl
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Author: Johnny Galaga
Date: 2008-12-26 02:45
Indeed, as the instrument warms up, the throat tones get better (less flat) but the clarion continues to get sharper. I've tried pulling out at the middle and bell joints which helps a little, but when I pull out at the barrel to get the clarion back down it just makes the throat tones get flatter again.
It sounds like my next step is to scrounge up some cash and try a few different mouthpieces.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2008-12-26 02:58
Try adding a thin piece of cork under the register key to reduce its pad opening height (but not so much as to make the throat 'pinch' Bb stuffy) to lower the pitch of the upper clarion register, then push in the barrel as needed to raise the pitch of the throat tones.
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Author: kdk ★2017
Date: 2008-12-26 03:15
Keep in mind that pulling out in the middle - if you're comfortable with it - won't have any effect on high A through C, which are the ones that are frequently very sharp.
The barrel may be too short, making the whole clarinet sharp overall notwithstanding the flat throat notes or, if your mouthpiece is a traditional (not Series 13) model, the mouthpiece itself may be sharp _and_ (if it does what I've found Series 13 models do) causing your throat pitches to be flatter than the rest of the instrument. If you were really attached to the Vandoren for its sound, response, flexibility, etc., and really wanted to keep it, a longer barrel would bring the general pitch down and a repair tech could probably bring the throat notes up to accommodate the mouthpiece, but you may have a problem using almost any other mouthpiece if you decide to change later. Once you take wood out of a tone hole (by undercutting) you can't put it back.
Also keep in mind that this problem with Vandorens represents my experience only (and with Series 13, not traditional Vandorens). If you try other mouthpieces and find the same problem persists, you may need to go to another option.
Karl
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Author: Rob Vitale
Date: 2008-12-26 05:08
yeah, equipment does help. I had my share of aggravation with the same issue. I got a Moennig barrel, which helped with the throat tones, and a 13 series mouth piece. Helped me tons. Also keep in mind, vent fingerings will greatly help the intonation and sound of the throat tones. heres a couple of quick and dirty fingerings that I use. (if you don't know them already)
thumb f, f#, and open G you can add the side Eb/Bb key
Ab, keep 2,3 on the right hand down
A either keep 2,3 on the rt hand down, or use the following Bb fingering
Bb, rt 3, lft 3, and add either the low Ab, f, or E keys. (each makes a different timbre and pitch)
Might be something to mess around with. The clarinet doesn't go without its flaws, but we all try to figure out ways around them.
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Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2008-12-26 15:18
My RC (different register key vent location than your R13) has a milder version of your tuning problem. In my case, the lower clarion is sharp, and the upper clarion is in tune. The long F and E are hugely flat. I'm using a Lee Livengood facing on one of his Zinner Blanks.
For grins, I had Lee make up a Vandoren M30/13 just to see what that would do to the intonation. (This mpc shortens the M30's long lay.) I does not affect the tuning much, but the instrument's response worsens.
So, maybe a Zinner blank is as worthy of experiment as a series 13 Vandoren.
Bob Phillips
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Author: asabene
Date: 2008-12-26 16:21
"In my case, the lower clarion is sharp, and the upper clarion is in tune."
I play on a regular R13 Bb and that seems to be my issue... typically before I've warmed up my instrument enough, the high-C (and most of the notes around it) is pretty flat and then it comes up in pitch a little later. My lower clarion notes... like middle-C and middle-D... play sharp. The middle-C I don't have much of an issue lipping it down, but the middle-D can get 10 or 15 cents sharp if I don't work hard on keeping it down. But I use a series 13 M30... I don't think the pitch difference is drastic (I used to use just a normal M30), but for me, the series 13 is just more in-tune in the end. My throats are often a little sharp by the time I'm done warming up and then I need to use some resonance fingers to bring them down. Then the bottom-of-the-staff E and F are often a little flat (especially before you warm up) so I just add the left pinky C#/G# key for the E and either that same C#/G# key OR the right hand Eb/Bb key (if I'm REALLY flat) for the F. But usually by the time my instrument is totally warmed up, these notes are in-tune at quieter volumes and only go flat when I play forte.
My A is a whole different story... my lower clarion notes are a little flat sometimes and my upper clarion notes (ESPECIALLY my high-B) are often on the sharp side. My throat tones are usually in-tune or a little flat, rarely sharp if ever, and so I use resonance fingerings that actually keep their pitch up (like using my first two fingers on my right hand to bring up the throat-G). My lower register is usually pretty in-tune, the only exception being my low-E and F are sometimes very flat, especially at forte. Most of the stuff above a high-C on my A varies... the C# through E are sometimes sharp, but then everything above that is maybe a hair flat (the most flat being the high-F)...
I'd say your best bet to getting the clarion down is to work on voicing more, maybe try to get more top lip pressure on the mouthpiece... make sure you are not biting. The throat tones you can use fingerings to get their pitch up... though I must admit, it is more unusual for throat tones to be flat on a Bb than to be sharp... they are typically sharp and that is why most people employ resonance fingerings. Make sure your instrument is 100% warm, because if you take out the tuner too soon, your reading will be inaccurate. Also a word of advice, don't be a slave over the tuner--don't even warm up with it near you! I don't look at it until I'm totally warm and have been practicing and want to make sure that my pitch is still reasonable.
Post Edited (2008-12-26 16:30)
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Author: clarinetguy ★2017
Date: 2008-12-26 19:59
I often have the same problem with my R 13. I got a new barrel (a Fobes 65 mm) and a Vandoren M-15 (13 series) mouthpiece, and it helped somewhat. I have noticed, though, that reeds do make a difference.
I like Mitchell Lurie Premiums (3 1/2), but I notice that when I play on them, the throat tones are always flat. I also like Rico Reserves (3), and when I use them, the throat tones are much better in tune.
Someone mentioned pulling out the middle joint. When I was in high school and college, I often did this and was encouraged to do it. When I started working on my masters degree, I took lessons from a clarinetist (who is no longer living, but shall go nameless) in a major symphony orchestra. He was a fine player, but his personality and teaching style left a lot to be desired. Once during a lesson I was tuning and pulled out the middle joint a little. Ouch! This man went on a long rampage about how you never pull out the middle joint. He went on and on about how in a symphony orchestra you never pull out in the middle, only at the barrel.
Sorry to digress, but I thought I'd share something else about this teacher. Once during a lesson I did some half-holing to make some high notes come out a little smoother. Ouch again! He went on another rampage about how he never did it and about how symphony musicians don't do it. He added that this was a "silly little trick" dreamed up and taught by college professors who sit in their offices all day.
Soon after, this teacher decided that he didn't have time for me any more, and he sent me to another teacher, a much nicer person. I must say that this was one of the happiest days of my life!
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2008-12-27 03:28
Hey Johnny, I hate to give you the bad news but this can be number of problems. It could be the clarinet. I had a Buffet years ago that was sharp on the high B,C and flat the 12th below, even Hans Meonnig, pardon the spelling, could not fix it so he blamed it on my mouthpiece, but it was the same on every mouthpiece. So it could be the clarinet, a bore problem, it could be the barrel so try different types of barrels not just the same manufacture, try some different mouthpieces, could be that or it could be the register tube, a very likely source but you would have to go to someone like Chadash in NY to have him work with you or you can go to a good repair person that has other tubes for you to try to see if it makes a difference. Or the last thing it could be is you. Have an accomplished player try it with their set up and see if it's the same problem, if they don't have a problem have them use your set up. If they still don't have problem then you know it's you, if they have the same problem refer to my above suggestions. ESP
www.peabody.jhu.edu/457 Listen to a little Mozart, live performance.
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