 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-12 05:27
Michael Collins has recently released his recordings of Spohr Concertos #3 and #4. This now completes his cycle of Spohr recordings. (he previously recorded #1 and #2 in 2005)
BBC Music Magazine gives the recordings a glowing review, saying this is now the definitive set to have.
The Swedish Chamber Orchestra is conducted by Robin O'Neill and the recording label is Hyperion...GBK
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Author: Philip Caron
Date: 2008-07-12 16:56
I intend to get those cds. However, in many years of collecting cds I've become very cynical about BBC reviews. No disrespect intended to Mr. Collins, whose playing I've not yet heard.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-12 17:02
I have heard snippits on BBC Radio 3 of all 4 and they are wonderful. I'm waiting for the box set of all 4 concertos. I wonder if Michael will perform any of them live? It seems that these concerti get recorded but seldom heard in the concert hall.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: clarionman
Date: 2008-07-12 18:55
The Spohr concerti are some of the most difficult clarinet concerti I have seen. I wonder how many tries it takes to record any of those concerti successfully to release on the cd. That brings me to my other point, if those concerti are very difficult to perform correctly on a sound studio, would it be possible to perform them at a recording quality in a live performance at a concert hall?
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-07-12 19:10
clarionman- I think that anyone who has made a studio recording will tell you that it's not possible to record anything on CD that you can't do in real life (at least in classical music). You can only edit between the best takes of what you were able to play. With an orchestra behind you, you're not going to get very much studio time either. I bet that Michael Collins could play at least 95% of the quality of his CD recording in a live performance, if not more. I've heard him play some very difficult music live that was simply astounding.
And the Spohr concerti are not THAT difficult...
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2008-07-13 03:00
Liquorice wrote:
> ... the Spohr concerti are not THAT difficult...
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> nope, just flash.
>
Anyone who has ever actually played these in a public performance will have some respect for the difficulty of the undertaking. The technique required is more than that of the Weber concerti, although with some intelligent practice, it is playable. But Spohr the violinist had no concept of the wind player's need to breathe, and **that** causes the biggest problem in a live performance. Passages that are playable in isolation become a lot more difficult as you run out of oxygen. I played Spohr 1 this past spring, and it was a challenge.
I'd love to hear the Collins, but am not sure I'll spring for my third set of the complete concerti! My wife might not be amused!!
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: David Niethamer
Date: 2008-07-13 03:19
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> So they were written without regard to them being played by a
> wind instrument....
Let's just say that Spohr wasn't completely aware of what a wind player would require, especially in the earliest concerti. As he worked with Hermstedt on the succeeding three concerti, it got better.
In Clive Brown's critical biography of Spohr, he cites information that the first concerto was unplayable on Hermstedt's clarinet. Spohr offered to adapt the concerto, but instead, Hermstedt had his instrument improved to make the chromatic passage work playable, and worked hard to play it as Spohr wrote it.
David
David
niethamer@aol.com
http://members.aol.com/dbnclar1/index.html
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Author: Phurster
Date: 2008-07-13 05:00
Tony Pay's remarkable recordings of No 1+2 is available again as an mp3 download (at least in the USA). I would recomend these recordings to all Clarinet players.
Pity he didn't record nos 3+4.
Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, Julian Bliss and now Michael Collins all have recordings available at the moment. With such wonderful players we are a bit spoilt for choice.
Chris O.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-13 05:22
Phurster wrote:
> Karl Leister, Sabine Meyer, Julian Bliss and now Michael
> Collins all have recordings available at the moment. With such
> wonderful players we are a bit spoilt for choice.
You've forgotten Ernst Ottensamer's 1995 set of the 4 concerti on Naxos.
It is equal to, if not better, than some of the above...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-07-13 06:01
David Niethamer wrote: "Anyone who has ever actually played these in a public performance will have some respect for the difficulty of the undertaking."
I've played No.s 1 and 2 in public performance. Compared to many 20th century works these concertos are a walk in the park. I've heard Michael Collins play crazily difficult stuff live so I have no doubt that he could play the Spohr concertos live.
I think that the reason they are not performed more publicly is not because of their difficulty, but because Spohr isn't such a popular composer these days (how often do you hear the violin concertos performed?), even though in his day he was reportedly more popular than Beethoven. Besides which, sadly the vast majority all of the live clarinet concertos that get programmed today are from only a handful of pieces.
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Author: giuliano
Date: 2008-07-13 10:18
Liquorice wrote:
> I think that anyone who has made a studio recording will tell you that it's not possible to record anything on CD that you can't do in real life (at least in classical music). You can only edit between the best takes of what you were able to play. With an orchestra behind you, you're not going to get very much studio time either.
It only depends on budget...
If they want, they can record, edit and fix one measure at a time, or even less.
Have you ever heard of auto-tuning, for instance? They can cut, paste, tune, slow down or make it faster, and son on...
Of course, pop music is the field where those tricks are used the most, but they *can* do it in classical music as well.
In the classical field they do recording sessions to fix live recordings, sometimes.
But I think Michael Collins does not need that...
Giuliano Forghieri
Nubilaria Clarinet Ensemble, arranger, clarinet, Eb clarinet
Accademia Musica Insieme, founder, arranger, clarinet
www.musicengraving.it
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2008-07-13 17:15
giuliano- I was talking about classical music. I doubt VERY much that they used auto-tuning in Michael Collins' recordings!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2008-07-13 18:07
DavidBlumberg wrote:
> Would bet the farm that it doesn't happen in most classical
> recordings.
>
> Cause they actually have skill.
I know that it most certainly does happen, but I don't know how often. A piece may be recorded during several consecutive or non-consecutive days, and the tuning may be slightly different each time. If a pipe organ is involved, the tuning almost certainly will be different (even during the performance of one movement it might be different enough to hear if you compare the beginning to the end).
There might not be a lot of little splices, but there might be a bit of resampling done to get rid of tuning discrepancies. With resampling you can change either or both tuning and tempo independently.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2008-07-13 18:37
I once asked Karl Leister about his recordings of the 4 Spohr Concertos.
He told me that the preparation was a huge undertaking, and the concerti were all recorded within 2 separate five day sessions, counting some "touch ups".
...GBK
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Author: giuliano
Date: 2008-07-13 22:27
Mark Charette wrote:
> I know that it most certainly does happen, but I don't know how often.
Exactly.
How often depends on the balance between the players' skills and the budget involved...
As far as skills are concerned, Leister and Collins don't need that, of course, but in many cases some "fixes" are mandatory.
I was told by a professional that his standard of less than 100 (one hundred!) cuts per record (he spoke about classical music, not pop) is one of the lowest... the only field where cuts are kept to a real minimum is jazz, where usually the first take is the only take and no editing is used (of course, there are exceptions...).
David Blumberg wrote:
> Would bet the farm that it doesn't happen in most classical recordings.
Yes, when major players are involved it doesn't happen, but these days many players are not allowed the time to study as needed, and they often don't have the chance to rehearse enough. In *some* cases a little more studio time, along with a little Pro Tools time, can save the situation.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't trust the vast majority of the "perfect" recordings of today.
Giuliano Forghieri
Nubilaria Clarinet Ensemble, arranger, clarinet, Eb clarinet
Accademia Musica Insieme, founder, arranger, clarinet
www.musicengraving.it
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Author: diz
Date: 2008-07-14 05:15
Glenn (long time no chatsky). The Spohr clarinet concerti, whilst not works of absolute genius, are amazingly diverse, don't you think? I like them alot, in fact, most of Spohr's music I find extremely pleasant.giuliano wrote:
> Mark Charette wrote:
>
> > I know that it most certainly does happen, but I don't know
> how often.
>
> Exactly.
>
> How often depends on the balance between the players' skills
> and the budget involved...
>
> As far as skills are concerned, Leister and Collins don't need
> that, of course, but in many cases some "fixes" are mandatory.
>
> I was told by a professional that his standard of less than 100
> (one hundred!) cuts per record (he spoke about classical music,
> not pop) is one of the lowest... the only field where cuts are
> kept to a real minimum is jazz, where usually the first take is
> the only take and no editing is used (of course, there are
> exceptions...).
>
> David Blumberg wrote:
>
> > Would bet the farm that it doesn't happen in most classical
> recordings.
>
> Yes, when major players are involved it doesn't happen, but
> these days many players are not allowed the time to study as
> needed, and they often don't have the chance to rehearse
> enough. In *some* cases a little more studio time, along with a
> little Pro Tools time, can save the situation.
>
> As far as I'm concerned, I don't trust the vast majority of the
> "perfect" recordings of today.
>
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-14 13:12
These concerti should have a lot more exposure really. I was quite sad not to be able to do the 3rd recently due to major cock-up at Breitkopf over the parts. I did the Mozart instead and will go back to Romania next year to do in Sibiu.
I find these concerti wonderful, they last two especially remind me of a bel canto soprano. According to Pamala Weston Simon prefered the 3rd out of all four.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: diz
Date: 2008-07-15 01:34
Peter - sorry to hear that Breitkopf ended up being dumkopf for you, very annoying indeed.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: cigleris
Date: 2008-07-15 23:49
Indeed Diz, you should have read the snotty email from the agent in Romania because the parts where going to be hired in London and then i'd bring them with me. I was him that put the spanner in the works.
Peter Cigleris
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Author: diz
Date: 2008-07-17 22:50
Customer service, it's a historical fact.cigleris wrote:
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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