 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-02-04 16:58
Hi all.
i recently took on a young student who seems to have a mild form of autism. little response except parroting, wandering attention. from what i can deduce from asking her questions, she understands music (note names and where her fingers go, parts of the staff, lengths of notes) but i am having trouble getting her to keep her hand position and embouchure consistent.
does anyone here have any experience with this kind of student? any sage wisdom you'd care to share with me? how can i make this work for her?
thanks all
JK
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-02-04 19:55
pretty certain it isn't ADHD, as i've dealt with a few kids with that before. this isn't like that. she is more dissociative.
i know that she has an aide with her at school, but i wasn't given much more information than that.
whether that's what she is to be labelled or not, any ideas to get her to engage a little more? or will i just need to give this student more time with each skill before we move on?
it is a puzzle...
JK
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-04 20:09
You mentioned parroting - could that work with the instrument too? Ditch the music sheets for the time being and concentrate on playing?
--
Ben
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2008-02-04 21:49
My younger son (now age 24) is autistic. He has perfect pitch and sees music as colors (shares this with Scriabin and others).
He can not read music but can plunk nice passages on piano with no discordant sounds.
He can produce a sound on clarinet but can not learn the keys.
I suggest that a clarinet might not be the best choice for an autistic person...maybe a recorder or some simple electronic keyboard (casio or similar) might be less frustrating.
The diagnosis of autism has expanded over the years to include what is now termed ASD...autistic spectrum of diseases. There is a reason for this, some (not all) of which has to do with how various governmental agencies supply educational funding for those afflicted. There are other reasons which are not within the scope of this BB to mention, nor do I wish to launch into a diatribe about it.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-02-04 23:17
actually, alseg, i agree with you. the clarinet may not be the best instrument for her (it gets progressively more difficult). however, i'd like to give this a decent shot (and so do the parents)
the day may come when i'll have to tell them that it won't work, but maybe i can make things more interesting for her in the mean time. i like the play without music idea. i think i'll find some easy song books to play out of too. she has managed to stumble through "Twinkle Twinkle" a couple of times now...
i am trying to make music a positive experience for her, whether she is able to join band or not.
JK
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-04 23:30
JK,
I have had two autistic students in the short amount of time that I've been working. Both have Aspergers Syndrome. I know of one other student in my area that has the AS as well.
With the first student the goals were exceedingly modest. Progress was slow in coming and managing the lesson was quite often a chore. Keeping the boy on track was always an issue. When the time to make a decision about continuing in high school I was happy to steer the student's parents in another direction.
The second student's AS is so mild that he hasn't been told he has it. I'm uncertain how accomplished he will become, but I am certain that he will be a fine section clarinetist. His lessons are always easy to teach...he prepares everything I ask him. My teaching style involves asking the students many questions, and although he takes his time to answer them, he does quite well.
The third student in my area is in the middle. She's quite a fine flautist, and works very hard. I know from her teacher that she has great difficulty responding to abstract questions and topics...but she plays wonderfully.
Your student's success is going to based on their natural abilities and natural handicaps. If they want to succeed and will work at it, then they probably have a shot (in my opinion).
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: bbarner
Date: 2008-02-05 14:48
I wonder if there would be any useful information in a book such as:
"Music therapy for the autistic child" by Juliette Alvin (2nd ed., 1992, Oxford University Press)
Bill Barner
http://www.billbarner.com
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Author: timg
Date: 2008-02-05 23:27
Most people read body-language automatically, but be aware that autistics won't send the signals that you subconsciously expect. For example, your student might be listening and concentrating on what you say, but also staring out of the window. You can't tell directly if your words were absorbed or not -- but then again, in my experience as a teacher, plenty of "normal" people will nod and make eye contact even if they haven't understood a thing.
Be extremely clear when asking your student to do anything. Many people communicate perfectly well with nods, winks, and a few disjointed phrases. Anybody who doesn't "speak" body language simply won't understand this.
On the plus side, autistics are often capable of intense concentration for long periods, if only you as their teacher can find the right level to engage their interest.
Finally, labeling anybody as autistic doesn't really help them (in spite of what the head-shrinkers say). They can't change the way they are, and the tag tends to provoke an extremely negative reaction from other people. Alas, anybody who can be classified as not-normal will find themselves shunned. At my old school, not so many years ago, just being left-handed was enough to get you chucked into the Special Needs class. It's better, I think, to look at mild cases of autism simply as part of the broad spectrum of human character.
Oh, and bravo for taking on a difficult student. This kind of open-mindedness is, I think, one of the hallmarks of a really great teacher.
-Tim
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-06 11:26
Our 9 year old is diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome. He has no immediate interest in music so far. My experience is that their skills develop very fast and becomes an obsession when they are confronted with something that really catch their attention, may it be music, astronomy or if May 13 1925 was on a Monday.
You will probably see very soon if your student is skilful and practice at home. If not, I think it’s a waist of time and energy. Keep close contact with the parents to see if she voluntarily picks out the clarinet at home. If not, I think it’s useless.
I agree with Alseq that the clarinet might not be the best 1st instrument for an autistic person. A piano or a key-board instrument has a more logical setup and might be a better introduction to music.
Alphie
Post Edited (2008-02-06 11:33)
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-02-06 23:43
timg wrote:
>Finally, labeling anybody as autistic doesn't really help them (in spite of what the head-shrinkers say)<
This is a very wise sentiment. Parents often have to go through the hoops of a "label" to get what they need from the system for their child, but the diagnosis is incidental to what the child needs. The parent may get some valuable strategies along the way, but most of it is probably what they have found out about their child from their own experience. What every child needs, special needs or not, is to be taught and appreciated as an individual.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 00:14
So clarinetwife, you would then disregard a diagnosis for a heart disorder by birth to not ”label” your child? Would that also be incidental in your mind?
Alphie
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2008-02-07 00:24
I think it was more about "mental" (as opposed to "physical") disorders.
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Ben
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-02-07 00:32
Alphie, what I meant is that, unlike treating the heart condition, you don't need a diagnosis to approach the behavior. If a kid has attention issues, there are approaches to use whether or not a diagnosis of ADD is made. If a kid is gifted, even if for some reason they don't qualify for a gifted program, you still try to get them the enrichment they need.
Barb
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 00:43
So, a child with a heart dysfunction should have a proper treatment and one with a neuro psychiatric dysfunction is labelled and does not deserve a proper treatment when diagnosed? Am I correct?
You seem to forget that it’s actually the behaviour and the ability to get by at all in this world of chaos that is the very issue diagnosing an autistic child. For them, every day is a cultural chock. Imagine for you to be put in the middle of Teheran and try to fit in in a split second. I think you would ask for help wherever you could get it. The problems are a little bit to big to be neglected by prejudice comments.
Alphie
Post Edited (2008-02-07 01:00)
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-02-07 01:11
Certainly diagnosis and treatment are very important, and there's the rub. Parents often rely on what works and what helps for many years and several diagnoses, depending on what seems most pertinent for each evaluator. I know two youths with Aspergers who were not diagnosed until they were in their teens, and it wasn't because the parents weren't trying to figure out what was going on.
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Author: timg
Date: 2008-02-07 11:11
Regarding choice of instrument, I think it's worth giving the clarinet a chance. A piano keyboard has very few landmarks to guide the inexperienced player. There are endless possibilities for placing the fingers on the keys, and having too many choices to sort through can be a source of frustration.
I like the clarinet because it has plenty of structure -- you never have to hunt for middle C -- and because it *is* a logical design. The holes are arranged in a geometrical fashion along the pipe which matches the frequencies of the lowest chromatic scale. The keywork arises simply because we don't have 19 fingers, and the chosen layout of the keys nicely reflects a C-major scale.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 13:03
clarinetwife wrote:
>unlike treating the heart condition, you don't need a diagnosis to approach the behavior.<
I disagree. The parents and the school need a diagnosis based on psychiatric experience to have a road map to isolate the problems. Otherwise everything turns into chaos because you simply do not understand what’s going on with your child. I bless the day we got the diagnosis so we could start approaching our son with some understanding. Before that he had for one year been walking around sounding and acting like a washing machine. He learned the specifics of every model on the market by heart at age 5. Washing machines was his life. After that it was church towers for 6 month and after that, mobile telephones. The “attention issue” was a very small part of the problem. Tell me again that we didn’t need a diagnosis. I don’t think you really know what you are talking about.
Alphie
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-07 13:43
Clarinetwife-
I will chime in on Alphie's side from personal experience. Asperger's Syndrome, although classified as an autism, varies greatly from what is considered "normal" autism.
Without the distinction (and specifics) the method used to teach (and the belief that significant progress can be made) would be greatly different for me, personally.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2008-02-07 13:56
Alphie, I am glad to hear that the situation with your son was clarified at a young age. The idea of my last post was that diagnosis is not always quick in coming. In those cases, parents often build up a toolbox of calming, focusing, and teaching approaches, and I respect the experience of parents with their child.
From the point of view of the private music teacher, it is these practical approaches that will help you teach the child, and parents can be great resources regarding how their child learns and responds.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-07 14:18
We needed help. Period! The diagnosis told us at least in what galaxy to start to look for answers. Before that we were lost in space. We were happy to exclude that he was totally nuts and that he only suffers from Asperger’s syndrome or something similar and that there are methods to approach the problems.
Today he’s a bright eyed kid who’s trying to learn Japanese by himself. He’s not doing so badly actually to be honest.
Alphie
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-02-07 15:44
this thread hasn't really gone where i thought it would go, but you've all given me a lot to think about.
JK
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-07 16:13
JK,
Do you have a follow up question that could send us on your way?
James (still reading)
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-02-07 19:52
In agreeing with David,
You will be flustered by the "simple" concepts that take a great deal of time and patience to teach, and simultaneously shocked by advanced concepts that are grasped rather quickly.
Double and Triple doses of patience are needed, as well as determination to evolve teaching methods to suit the student's needs.
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: Mark Horne
Date: 2008-02-08 06:32
Having a 6 year old daughter living with autism I might be able to lend some insight here. Many children "on the spectrum" (the autisitc spectrum) tend to be very visually oriented, and in fact a common teaching technique is to use picture icons to represent words and contruct sentences. Some children who otherwise have very limited verbal ability become very adept at communicating using this picture card system. You may want to get as much material as you can that shows visually what to do - embrochure, hand position, tongue position, etc.
A common thread among autistic children is a difficulty in processing language. Therefore, describing concepts - either verbally or in writing, is likely to be much less effective than showing - either in person or through images.
Another thing to be aware of is sensory integration issues. Some sounds or sensations are perceived as painful. You might want to observe to see if any of the notes or squeeks, or vibrations of the reed appear to make the student uncomfortable.
In terms of the clarinet being an appropriate instrument, I think it is an excellent choice in many cases. Mechnical aptitude is often a strength of individuals living with autism and the mechanical complexity of the clarinet is not an issue.
Of course, every case is unique, and no single approach works for all. However, my belief is music can be a wonderful enrichment for these children and their families.
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2008-02-09 17:32
today's lesson went well. aside from some made up fingerings (LH second finger used for E, third finger on low B in the right hand) she seems to be making some progress, albeit much slower than other students. there is definitely something different in her social interactions, but i guess that i'll just focus on making progress in her playing, while keeping her specific challenges in mind.
it is still kind of weird in that she won't verbally respond to me the way other students will. i guess i'll get used to it, but it caught me off guard at first.
thank you all for your comments and suggestions.
now i'm off to find an easy, fun songbook for next week's lesson!
JK
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-02-09 19:34
I teach a high-functioning autistic 14 year old clarinet student, I have taught him for over 3 years now. He did his Royal Conservatory of Music Grade 1 clarinet about 1 1/2 years ago, and got an 81; he will probably do his Grade 2 RCM in June. We do a lot of Dalcroze type exercises (combined with work at the clarinet) and ear training, he's gotten really good at both. We do a lot of duet playing, and ensemble playing with my pianist, he has performed a number of clarinet solos at student concerts and family events. He's doing well on learning the scales, studies, and repertoire for his next exam, his mom is a pianist as well and helps him learn the concepts I teach in lessons. This kid also made it into high school band, on 2nd clarinet! Quite an accomplishment for a student who is autistic. (He is partially integrated with the mainstream students)
If anyone would like more details on how I've taught him (he's come a very long way since he first started, when he started he was almost literally honking through the horn, now he plays Grade 2 pieces quite well, I'll try to post a video of his playing with my pianist in the next 2-3 weeks and I'll also try to get a video of myself teaching him. Feel free to email me or get in touch with me via Facebook.
Meri
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2008-02-09 19:42
This sounds very interesting. I'm looking forward to the video.
Alphie
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-05-12 23:27
Here's a link to my 14 year old autistic student playing one of his pieces for his Grade 2 exam. (it's a bit of a work in progress) I got permission from his parents to post this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jq53J7m9c-M
Enjoy!
Meri
Please check out my website at: http://donmillsmusicstudio.weebly.com and my blog at: http://clariniano.wordpress.com
Post Edited (2008-05-12 23:27)
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Author: D
Date: 2008-05-14 18:58
Regarding the original posting.
Do you get very far with mimicry? I was wondering if you playing and changing your sound and asking the student to copy that would be useful for tone, dynamics etc. Perhaps making a noise and altering it only by changing your bottom lip (for example) and telling the student to experiment with her bottom lip to try and make her sound copy yours. If this is a concept she can work with it might be adaptable for fingering sequences, such as a chromatic run using the little fingers. If she can watch you do it and mimic that then maybe maybe maybe that might be a way in to building some muscle memory. Depends how she is wired really.
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Author: clariniano
Date: 2008-07-03 19:50
Update: My autistic student did his Grade 2 RCM clarinet exam about three weeks ago and he got an 80!
Meri
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2008-07-03 23:00
congratulations! I really don't know anything about the scale upon which your student performed but success is success,
Please congratulate the student too!
James
Gnothi Seauton
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