 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-06 23:35
I've been playing with the thumb rests inverted on both my A and Bb horns for sometime. Recently, I feel that the position of the thumb rest on my A is still too low.
Before I have my tech permanently raise the thumb rest, I would like to experiment with different positions so I know exactly where I want the placement. Searching the BBoard I've noticed several posts refering to gluing on the thumb rest as a short term solution, however no one specifies which type of glue they use.
What type of glue would you recommend that is strong enough to hold the weight for a short period of time, yet easily removable and wont cause damage to the wood?
Thanks.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-07 01:02
I would not trust any glue there on a surface that may be slightly oily, or sealed.. (LOL! - If glue was strong enough, then manufacturers would more than likely be using it, to cut costs!)
How about binding it on, say with dental floss or the binding they use for fishing rods.
BTW, if you want to move the rest that far up, and have it the right way up for thumb comfort, then make sure the screws are not going to go through to the tenon socket. Even if they don't protrude, you don't want anything there that could encourage a crack.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-07 01:47
One way to move your thumb rest up a bit to see if it would work for you and not do any permanent damage or alteration is to just remove it and turn it upside down.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-07 02:13
Quote:
One way to move your thumb rest up a bit to see if it would work for you and not do any permanent damage or alteration is to just remove it and turn it upside down.
They're already upside down - I used the word "inverted" in my original post.
Thanks though!
Quote:
How about binding it on, say with dental floss or the binding they use for fishing rods.
Hmmm, I could try that. I would have to thread it under, but I wonder if I would need some sort of rubber traction between the wood and metal to keep the thumb rest from sliding.
Post Edited (2007-08-07 02:14)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-07 02:28
See what I get for reading too fast! My next suggestion would be to try one of the adjustable rests. Some of those can be moved quite a bit higher.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-07 02:36
I can barely play clarinet as it is, but I've also inverted the thumb rest on my soprano and it feels better to play this way.
Let me suggest that you take the thumb rest off, hold the clarinet up either with a neckstrap and/or in combination with resting the bell on your knees (or clamping it between them). Then, start keying notes in the RH, eventually ending up with all RH fingers holding down keys (Eb). Now, place your thumb where you think it should be and place a thin piece of masking tape lightly onto the body of the clarinet so that the edge of the tape is aligned with the side of your thumb. (Have someone else place the tape if it would make it easier).
Repeat this keying-then-resting-all-fingers process a few times and see if you're consistent with where your thumb ends up in relation to the tape. Move the tape as necessary. Once you find a consistent position, the tape will tell you where the thumb rest should be positioned.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-07 02:50
Quote:
See what I get for reading too fast! My next suggestion would be to try one of the adjustable rests. Some of those can be moved quite a bit higher.
I do own a Kooiman Maestro, but I've been afraid to take the plunge on my primary set. I really do need to get off my butt and have it installed on my other set of horns to test it out.
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Author: Ed
Date: 2007-08-07 03:23
Quote:
I do own a Kooiman Maestro, but I've been afraid to take the plunge on my primary set.
I have a couple of colleagues that have had them installed and love them
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-07 04:56
"...Hmmm, I could try that. I would have to thread it under, but I wonder if I would need some sort of rubber traction between the wood and metal to keep the thumb rest from sliding."
How about a bit cut from a surgical glove. They seem to work well for dentists at gripping teeth.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-08-07 10:36
The suggestion to place the thumb down last to determine thumbrest position sounds odd to me. What about gravity? Don't most of us allow the thumb to sag? I know there are some out there that suggest using the muscle at the base of the thumb to hold up the clarinet, but that seems rather cumbersome to me.
Bottom line: make sure that your RH position vis-a-vis the thumb rest allows clear access to the bottom side key (Eb/Bb) or there may be even more hand strain down the road.
..........Paul Aviles
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-07 10:58
You can tack the thumbrest on with ...
... wait for it ...
SUPERGLUE!
It will be a temporary fix, but you can determine it's best position and reposition it to suit you before having any holes drilled (drill them once the thumbrest is in situ, then remove the thumbrest and superglue and then have the thumbrest screwewd into this position) - and it's not difficult to remove superglue from the wood using an old reed to scrape it off with. If for some reason it's not coming off easily, use acetone to dissolve it and then oil and buff the affected area of wood to restore the finish.
Just be careful when using superglue that you don't let it run down the joint or into the cross B/F# tonehole or pad. Just use a few small drops on the back of the thumbrest, then place it on the clarinet.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-08-07 11:00)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-07 11:09
Superglue!!!
And if your clarinet happens to be one with that black filler/coating, then that will more than likely push off with the superglue. And if you use acetone on that stuff, it makes a hell of a mess of the surface, almost instantly. Been there!
Acetone and treated clarinet surfaces just don't go together.
But if the clarinet has the brown streaks common in an untreated surface, then you're probably safe. But you may just fill in some of the grain with superglue. And if any of that surface timber has a weakness of any sort, you could push those bits out with the glue.
Hypothetical, yes, but I suggest caution!
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-07 12:11
If it makes a mess of the black stain, colour it in with a permanent marker pen.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Jude
Date: 2007-08-07 12:12
Maybe you could try re-fitting with adjustable thumb rests?
Mine needed to be repositioned much higher than the adjustment would allow on both Bflat and A, but getting them in the approximate position was ok because they were both height adjustable thumb rests. This relieved the fear that it might not be in precisely the right place and I might have to go back to the technician (as it turned out, neither thumb rest has needed any further tweaking...)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-07 14:12
"If it makes a mess of the black stain, colour it in with a permanent marker pen."
Sometimes this surface coating is quite thick. More like an easily-dissolved paint. A marker pen does not patch up this lack of thickness.
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Author: William
Date: 2007-08-07 14:37
In a masterclass, Stanley Hastey--legendary Eastman clarinet teacher--recommended using Elmers to glue thumbrests onto clarinets. He said, if you want to change it's position, all you have to do is "knock it off".
Personally, I have Bay adjustable ligs on both my Bb & A clarinets. They are comfortable and adjustable to my needs--but exspensive at almost $100 per unit.
On my R13's, I have Selmer adjustable thumbrests instead of the fixed version Buffet provided.
John Winslow (ligiture guy) never got around to making his.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-07 15:17
I can't find the copies of the Yamaha adjustable thumbrest for want of looking.
The adjustable part is stamped from sheet metal (rather than a weak casting) and has a large screw head to lock it in position onto the base plate. The base plate is secured to the lower joint with two screws.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2007-08-07 15:30
Having been an early advocate of T R inversion, or relocation, to find an acceptable orientation providing a better "pinch" [of thumb/first-finger] plus easier access to the rt-hand E/B touch-piece, I simply put my thumb On Top of, or above, the T R to see if it helped, supporting the cl bell on knee or chair briefly. Yes, a well-placed adjustable is prob. the best long term choice. I agree with "don't use acetone/nail-polish-remover on any clarinets". Milder solvents such as rubbing alcohol or charcoal-lighter-fluid [isoparaffinic hydrocarbons] are less damaging. As to a glue for thread-stripped small screw holes etc, I prefer shellac [pad and cork cement] which is easier to remove, and holds quite well. Just AM thots, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-08-07 15:49
I had the Diamond adjustable thumb rest installed. Very good. Find it on the web. about $10. Similar to the no longer available Yamaha
richard smith
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-07 23:57
"In a masterclass, Stanley Hastey--legendary Eastman clarinet teacher--recommended using Elmers to glue thumbrests onto clarinets. He said, if you want to change it's position, all you have to do is 'knock it off'."
Knock what off?
- Just the rest, leaving the glue stuck to the timber?
- Or does the glue release from the timber and come cleanly off with the rest?
- Or does the glue come off with the rest and sometimes split off a bit of timber while it is at it.
And if it knocks off so easily, can you trust your clarinet to its adhesion, especially when that adhesion is typically rather poor on oily, treated surfaces, and also very smooth metal surfaces?
Hmmm. If it is worth the risk, then do it. :-)
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-08 00:02
> I had the Diamond adjustable thumb rest installed. Very good. Find it on
> the web. about $10. Similar to the no longer available Yamaha
Ack. 1stopclarinet.com has them. (no affiliation...)
--
Ben
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-08 00:56
Quote:
- Just the rest, leaving the glue stuck to the timber?
- Or does the glue release from the timber and come cleanly off with the rest?
- Or does the glue come off with the rest and sometimes split off a bit of timber while it is at it.
I had read the Hasty quote while searching the archives. John Moses also had posted about temporarily gluing the thumbrest on to test the position - but none of the posts talked about what kind of glue. IMO, two trusted and highly regarded masters of the clarinet, so I believed gluing was possible for a temporary situation. This is why I posted the question in the first place.
Elmers glue now comes in many forms: traditional white, gel and wood glue...to name the most common soft glues. I am guessing Hasty was talking about the original white elmers glue, that has been around for years, which is surprising. The white elmers glue would not ruin the wood in any way although I'm surprised it would stick metal to wood. It's usually used for craft projects involving popsicle sticks, construction paper and the like.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-08 02:10
It is used for materials where it can soak into the surface a little, for grip. That is hardly likely to be the case here. And that is why it just knocks off.
By all mean use ANY glue, or double sided tape, for a trial, but I would suggest be ready for the instrument to drop.
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Author: Robyn_765
Date: 2007-08-08 13:15
I have been using a Kooiman Etude (cheaper version of the maestro, I guess) for about a month and really like it, although I wish it had just a couple more notches to make it a bit lower - I have to let it rest a little higher on my hand than it is intended, I think, but it is definitely better than the standard thumbrest.
You said you already have the Maestro - that may be worth trying before altering your clarinet - when I had my etude installed, they didn't even need to drill new/larger holes, and it is completely removable if I decided to stop using it at any time...
-- Robyn
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Author: skygardener
Date: 2007-08-08 13:40
Contact cement for trial. No damage to the wood, but it will give you a feel of things.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-08-08 13:49
I rebuilt a B&H 1010 a few years back and the owner had been playing on it for years with the thumbrest held on only with superglue as the screw holes had been stripped during previous attempts to screw the thumbrest in with increasingly larger screws. I bushed the holes and fitted the correct size screws which is easy enough to do, and surprised that the numerous and consequently failed attempts were taken instead of a relatively straightforward and permanent solution.
But it has to be said there was a lot of superglue on it, and it had also got into the cross B/F# and Acton vent bedplaces. With a fair bit of poking around with a sharp scriber I managed to pry it all out. The superglue on the surface came away easily enough and had caused no damage to the wood.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: chumbucket804
Date: 2007-08-08 14:17
I had my thumb rest permanently moved up. I decided on placement based on where my thumb naturally falls without actually holding the clarinet. Hold your right hand in front of you as if you were holding the clarinet. For me, my thumb is spaced between my index and middle finger. So when I put my fingers on the clarinet I put my thumb right between the first two and the tech marked where it was. It really helped my wrist to have my thumb rest moved.
Good luck!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-08 15:56
Chris: "The superglue on the surface came away easily enough and had caused no damage to the wood."
That demonstrates that the superglue did not stick well to this timber. :-)
Chumbucket: "Hold your right hand in front of you as if you were holding the clarinet. For me, my thumb is spaced between my index and middle finger. "
For me, the thumb is about 1" higher than my index, so the thumb rest screws would inappropriately go into the thin timber of the tenon socket. And to my knowledge adjustable thumb rests do not go this high. (On my left hand the thumb is significantly lower, not that that's relevant! :-)
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2007-08-08 16:16
Cripes, using glue sounds like a completely horrible idea...but since I've never tried it and other fine clarinetists have been successful with it, why not?
CA
edit: Clarification: If I had a problem with my thumb position, like you, I would try it. But I don't have that problem :-)
Post Edited (2007-08-08 16:17)
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2007-08-08 16:17
i was very successful with Hot glue.
i clean the area with alcohol first and the apply with hot glue.
it was supposed to be a temporary but until a tech could put screws in.
the tech elected to leave it as is and it has lasted over a year.
the thought was hot glue could be carefully remved with heat.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2007-08-08 22:36
"the thought was hot glue could be carefully removed with heat."
Yes, but still one hell of a mess IF the body has that thick black goo painted over it. I think that goo is heat sensitive as well as solvent sensitive. Some instruments from 'the big four' have this goo on them.
I certainly would not try that on ANY instrument.
And I say again, you may have just struck it lucky. Glue gun glue would stick really poorly to an oily timber, and also to say a nickel surface that has not been really well degreased, and warmed prior to gluing.
However if a clarinet drops directly to the floor, I suppose not TOO much damage is done.
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Author: Ski
Date: 2007-08-08 23:04
So after all this talk about glue, I guess my idea of using a piece of tape as a guide and a neckstrap to prevent the instrument from dropping to the floor was indeed "odd" after all...
;)
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