 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 18:42
1.is it true that there isnt a single clarinet that can be "perfectly" in tune? (meaning - every note no more than 2-3 cents sharp or flat)
2. if you have a low E 25-30 cents sharp, would you fix and compromise other notes?
3. does every clarinet have atleast 1 or 2 notes that are 25-30 cents flat or sharp?
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-07 18:53
1. The clarinet is a series of pitch compromises.
2. Buffet R13's (for example) are generally quite flat on chalumeau E and F so that clarion B and C are properly in tune. (E11's, on the other hand, are often not!) So yes...you can pull out at the bell to make the low E in tune...and subsequently make the clarion B flat.
3. Outside of these notes I would be suspicious of anything ELSE being +/- 25 cents.
My primary horn is pretty decent pitch wise. Not fantastic. Curiously enough G6, A6 and B6 are all 15+ cents sharp.
I know personally that the next time I buy a horn I will find one with improved pitch. I know also that I know how to play my current horn in tune from having used it for so long.
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-07 18:53)
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2007-08-07 19:15
The only instrument that is perfectly intune is the trombone, and even that has to be worked to be played in tune the correct way.
I just went through my instruments intonation with a strobe tuner the other day. I found the Low E and F are about 10cents flat and my Long B and C were just a little sharp. What did I do? First note I tuned was Open G. That was a little sharp so I pulled out at the barrel a little. Then I tuned G an octave above open G and that also was a little sharp so I pulled out a little in between the joints. Then when I got to my C, it was just a little bit sharp, just enough for me to "lip" the C down to the right pitch, and the B was almost dead on. Then when I went back down my F and E were a little more flat but I can "lip" those up. Generally speaking I wouldn't worry TOO much about a Low E being so sharp. Most instruments have a really FLAT Low E. Try messing around with your embouchure and see if you can get it in tune right. If your C and B are sharp too, then go ahead and pull out at the bell. Otherwise don't pull out to make a Low E in tune and then make a C or a B flat.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-07 19:17
janlynn wrote:
> what if pulling out the bell doesnt fix it?
Try to "lip up" or "lip down" the most offending notes. With a bit of embouchure trickery it's possible to correct at least the loooong notes a good bit. Nobody will notice the odd askew semiquaver unless your horn is very seriously out of whack.
IMO, rhythm is more important with short notes, tuning with long notes.
--
Ben
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 19:22
really? i dont have to worry about low E being 'that' sharp?
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 19:24
ben ...i have tried everything. the best i can do is bring it to about 8-10 cents sharp playing very loud. liping down didnt make enough difference.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-07 19:25
If a clarinet were "in tune" in one tuning, it would necessarily be out of tune in another tuning. There is no universal "in tune", since there multiple tunings.
If your instrument was inflexible, you'd be in trouble most of the time.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 19:29
ive been trying to explain all this to my father who bought me the clarinet. he plays pedal steel guitar and doesnt "get" the clarinet. he told me to ask if others have tuning problems too.
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-07 19:29
Janlynn,
Melvin has given a pretty thorough process that you might employ. He is also correct that low F and E are not a priority (pitch wise) in comparison to the B and C in the clarion.
It is important to remember that the closer a note is to a given joint, the more it is affected by adjusting that joint. If you simply tune ALL notes at the barrel, you will have flat throat tones and thumb F (as well as E, but E will not be affected as much as F, etc..) and will never adequately affect the lower notes of the horn.
There is a certain amount of "liping" that one learns to do without having to conciously think about it.
In an aside, I don't like the idea of "liping" down because it often inspires people to change their embouchure. Instead, I recommend that you think of minutely widening the space between your upper and lower teeth. Just a thought.
Is this the Ridenour Lyrique that you are talking about? What did Tom have to say about it? And have you had someone else you trust try playing the horn?
James
Gnothi Seauton
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 19:34
yes, it is the lyrique. tom suggested to do pretty much what melvin did. i did, but it didnt help. i will be seeing a new teacher in a few weeks so i will ask her about it. in the mean time, my father is upset and i dont know how to explain things to him. and the low E being that sharp really had me concerned because our conductor always hears when we are flat or sharp.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-07 19:44
Quote:
yes, it is the lyrique. tom suggested to do pretty much what melvin did. i did, but it didnt help.
If it is a relatively new purchase, can't you send it back to Tom Ridenour to work on the horn and adjust the E?
I agree with Mark C. that a horn needs flexibility in order to play in tune all the time- tuning with piano (temprered) is different than tuning in Orchestra (just). However, there are times when a note is a total dud and something on the horn needs to be adjusted so we are able to lip it up or down comfortably to bring the pitch where it needs to be. If this E is so sharp that you cannot bring the pitch down, it really must be sent back to Tom for adjustment. Isn't there a warranty of some type?
Post Edited (2007-08-07 19:45)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-07 19:51
janlynn wrote:
> ive been trying to explain all this to my father who bought me
> the clarinet. he plays pedal steel guitar and doesnt "get" the
> clarinet. he told me to ask if others have tuning problems too.
Does he tune by machine or by ear? Have him try his steel against a machine and then he'll find out how out of tune the fretting is.
And it most certainly is.
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 19:51
its about 3 months or so old. i'm hoping he will adjust it. but im waiting to see what my new teacher thinks be for sending it back. he said he would adjust it, but also told me how i would be compromising my clarion C and D. isnt there a happy medium we can get for all notes?
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2007-08-07 20:07
janlynn wrote:
> mark, he tunes with a tuner.
What station? WKQQ? ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
Seriously - if you pull the bell a bit, how much out of tune will the clarion B be then?
--
Ben
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Author: Tobin
Date: 2007-08-07 20:16
I think it is important for your father to realize that tuning for a guitarist is a *relatively* simpler thing.
His finger simply needs to move up or down and has the advantage of a fret...if the open string has been tuned properly then the fret allows the musician to "lock in" the pitch. Depending on the style of music he is performing it might often be performance practice to "scoop" into the proper pitch for expressive purposes. Also, does he use vibrato?
The clarinet does not have flexibility of that type, although we as clarinetists have to learn to use what flexibility we have. Generally, we have greater ability to pitch down than up.
It also sounds like your father has been playing for some time, learning to play in tune doesn't happen overnight.
Why don't you have your father read this thread?
James
Gnothi Seauton
Post Edited (2007-08-07 20:20)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-08-07 20:22
janlynn wrote:
> mark, he tunes with a tuner.
Many guitatists tune one string to a reference and then tune the others to frets and then harmonics to average out the error. Or, when tuning to a piano, go crazy ...
Tell him to check the tuning at every fret ...
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Author: janlynn
Date: 2007-08-07 20:31
yes, thats my plan, to let him read this so he knows that other clarinetists agree there is no such thing as having every single note rite on tune.
he thinks because its a brand new clarinet, it should play perfect.
Post Edited (2007-08-07 20:31)
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-08-07 20:31
Deleted...duplicate jg
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
Post Edited (2007-08-08 03:55)
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Author: johng ★2017
Date: 2007-08-07 20:33
Attachment: clarinet average intonation.pdf (10k)
I published a chart of the average intonation of four fine clarinets, 3 brand new hand picked Buffet R-13's and a vintage Buffet R-13 from the 1960's. The chart, which I am attaching a pdf copy, shows the average number of cents the note varied from correct pitch, either higher or lower. This limited sample gives an answer to your question about tuning variability being a standard feature. Are there clarinets that do better? Sure.....but you could spend a lifetime looking.
The real key is training your ears to hear intonation and training your playing to make the adjustments. Of course, this is not just about clarinets since every instrument and its player has it own problems and we have to live with that, too.
John Gibson, Founder of JB Linear Music, www.music4woodwinds.com
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Author: donald
Date: 2007-08-07 20:46
hey Melvin
here's a trick to raise the pitch of left hand/low reg E and F....
when playing these notes open the c#/g# key with left little finger
this is often not possible at speed, or too clumsy, but often can be very useful to raise the pitch of sustained notes, or a prominent note in a solo
practise going from d to e using this fingering for the e, and you will find that you will get used to it quite quickly (though i doubt it will ever be comfortable at speed for most players)
hope this was helpful
donald
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Author: Bubalooy
Date: 2007-08-07 21:00
I believe that "the father" in this thread plays pedal steel so this is an instrument that can play perfectly in tune (but usually doesn't) it's usually played with a slide and doesn't use frets.
As for clarinet. if the lowest tones are sharp you can lower them (when sitting) by putting the bell between your knees. If all the tone holes aren't covered, you can move fingers closer to the holes and this will also lower the pitch.
Slide trombone isn't the only instrument that can play perfectly in tune. All the strings can if you avoid the open strings and don't play the lowest note which can be written for the instrument.
Perfectly in tune with a strob. isn't perfectly in tune as pitch has to be adjusted up or down depending on it's role in the harmony 5th 3rd etc. Perhaps the most "in tune" of all is a good choir, although most of them tend to go sharp as a piece progresses when singing acapella.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2007-08-07 22:10
I think that you have to use the tuner to experiment with the instrument while pulling out in differant areas.
You could try other barrels, reeds & MPs to bring up the low E & F in the lower register while compromising the B & C in the upper register and work your way up from the lower register to compromise the notes going up the scale with each of the previous notes.
Another reed, or MP could also make the differance. the process is very time comsuming but then at least you will know what you have. You may find that your instruments intonation problems can be many things including the players ear. You may also find that you have a real nice instrument.
A good teacher or tech would be able do to tell you exactly what has to be done to bring an instrument in tune with its self. Im not so sure that the tuner will tell you that you are playing in tune and not many people have perfect pitch.
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Author: grifffinity
Date: 2007-08-07 22:24
Quote:
The chart, which I am attaching a pdf copy, shows the average number of cents the note varied from correct pitch, either higher or lower.
Johng,
Cool chart. I would like to know which notes were flat of temperment and which ones sharp though - if possible.
Quote:
he thinks because its a brand new clarinet, it should play perfect.
......But im waiting to see what my new teacher thinks be for sending it back. he said he would adjust it, but also told me how i would be compromising my clarion C and D.
JanLynn,
He's got a lot to learn about the clarinet.
It's a good idea to bring it to your teacher, just to have another clarinetist play the horn. I am curious to know how Tom plans to lower the E and why it would compromised the clarion C and D, but not clarion B?
Let us know how it turns out.
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Author: rtmyth
Date: 2007-08-08 14:52
Ambient 80F., 10 degrees above the optimum. Two Ariosos. 66mm barrel. pulled at midsection about 1.5mm. Low E about 20 cents sharp, on both. About 15 years ago, a respected acoustical expert and clarinetist told me the RH section of the Leblancs Concertos tended to be sharp, and that 1mm added to the section would be beneficial. My Concertos were quite sharp, everywhere, but I played in ambients of more than 70F. Check your instrument at 70F , and play smoothly g, f,e. Then read meter.
richard smith
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