 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 2000-06-27 20:43
I have recently wondered how manufacturers can justify a large jump in price between a pro-grade and a premium-pro grade instruments. To me, the huge jumps in price ($1500-2500 or more) does not usually seem to be worth the expense of all their improvements.
Meri
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Author: Dee
Date: 2000-06-27 21:55
Since they don't expect to sell nearly as many of the premium horns, the options are going to be disproportionately higher. If they were producing them in nearly the same quantities as the standard pro grade horns, there probably wouldn't be nearly as big a difference.
For example, I work in automotive. A replacement part for a car is several times the price of the cost of the part to the car manufacturer. Why? It has to be handled *separately* from the production run in part or in total. If the car is old, there is no production run to pull from just special service runs. Service parts have to be packaged separately, shipped separately, inventoried separately and so on. All these lead to higher costs.
Thus the combination of lower production quantities and special handling lead to a disproportionate increase in cost.
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Author: Justin
Date: 2000-06-28 00:10
I think Dee just about said it, but also, to compare it to the car industry, it is somewhat similar to why the base price, in Canadian dollars, for the Bentley Azure convertible is $500,000. Granted, a large portion of this is the expense of materials and the fact that it is built entirely buy hand, but because of the higher price, there is a little more "prestige" in owning it, and they wouldn't be making them if people wouldn't pay the exhorbitant prices.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-06-28 00:15
This is true. For an example, a double row radiator for my '71 Chevy truck with std. tranmission sells for about $220 here. However, I can get a bigger, heavy duty triple row radiator for about $140 simply because they make tons more of these. The same applies to instruments. The larger the product run, The lower the cost of production which in most cases is passed to the consumer, which will make a more desirable price at market creating an even bigger demand.
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Author: Bob Gardner
Date: 2000-06-28 03:05
The question still remains--what features or add advantages are there to the really high price horns. The base material is the same. Some of the average have silver keys etc. etc..
Except for the name and price of ownership why $2000 dollars?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-06-28 03:22
Well, if we take (for instance) a R13 going for on average 1900 right now, and compare it to a Festival or Vintage, we'll see about a $400 rise in price. A Prestige R13 goes for about $3200, or about $900 above the Festival. You'll get prettier wood, and the cachet of exclusivity. Other than that, the mechanics and options are identical.
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Author: Allen Cole
Date: 2000-06-28 05:46
I share the general skepticism about premium instruments. If I had to buy another clarinet, it just might be an E-11.
One thing that I would like to see is fingering options. How about a Mazzeo with an articulated G#. THAT would make my day...
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Author: Roger
Date: 2000-06-28 12:03
Might I suggest that you get what you pay for and I do recall the advice given on this BB on many occasions to get the best instrument you can afford,so would this advice not indicate that the more expensive instrument would through quality control etc. have been selected by the manufacturer as their premier model and warrant the price asked.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-06-28 12:16
Roger wrote:
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so would this advice not indicate that the more expensive instrument would through quality control etc. have been selected by the manufacturer as their premier model and warrant the price asked.
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I'm not so sure in this matter; if, indeed, the higher priced clarinets were of substantially higher quality we would see more of them in use. As it is, we see a great number of "average" pro equipment in professional use. Taking for instance the regular R13, we see many more of these in professional settings in the US than we do the Festival, Vintage, Prestige or Elite. The same goes for Leblanc - especially when you find that the Concerto & Opus are identical in every way with the exception of the wood (the Concerto is stained, the Opus unstained). I'm not sure the lack of staining should cost $850.
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Author: BAC
Date: 2000-06-28 12:17
I tend to differ in opinion on this one. My understanding from what I read, as you go up the line, the wood gets better in grade. Premimum, select....... closer grain.
Also, there is more care taken on the pro models to make the sound more perfect.
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Author: steve
Date: 2000-06-28 13:51
here's some devil's advocate stuff.....I think there is a move in instrument manufacturing to produce super pro premium boutique horns for amateur players with money. I'm not referring to small shops like Rossi, Eaton, etc..., but the big guys...I think it should be obvious that with proper tweaking, an optimized, personal setup, and a bit of adaptation, a pro-level player can get any sound s/he wants to out of your standard R-13, for example, and if he or she is a pro player, he or she will most likely invest the money saved by avoiding the Buffet prestige/elite/inconcievable/blow-your-mind horn into their kids' college education....
this is very true in the guitar world...Martin makes unbelievable re-issues of classic 1920's guitars festooned with pearl using nos endangered tropical hardwoods and fossil ivory nuts and saddles for tens of thousands of dollars....where I used to play, I'd be afraid to use such an instrument....but they also realize that folks need solid "working man" instruments, so they resurrected the old mahogany 15 series, updated the manufacturing process with CNC, and offer a pro grade instrument for $550.00...
imho premium pro=well-to-do amateur (not meant in a derogatory sense)...:)
s.
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Author: BAC
Date: 2000-06-28 15:06
I can only go by my own experience with a recent purchase of an R13. This instrument was checked against a meter as well as a pro who also checked it out. Bottom line - "right out of the box" this R13 played perfect notes up and down the scale. There was no need to pull the barrel or do anything for tuning. There was a small range up high that were off by cents - nothing you could tell by ear. When I played the intermediate models, I did not need a meter to tell me it was off. I might however have other issues that I will post under another topic.
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Author: paul
Date: 2000-06-28 17:25
There are several points in this thread to which I believe I can agree upon.
1. Cachet - you pay for the flash and exclusivity
2. Super premium horn for amateurs with money versus bread and butter pro grade for working stiffs
3. Some difference in the wood, workmanship, etc. to produced a wonderful tone with minimal work
4. On the bullseye intonation with minimal work
5. Price difference is a function of mass production and market demand
Okay, that said, here are some points to consider to the contrary for pure discussion's sake. Keep in mind that I'm a bit biased - I personally own a Festival as an adult novice (shame on me!!! ).
1. Ordinary pro grade versus premium pro grade. Wood and workmanship differences are there, especially in select production runs. I've heard some horror stories about R-13s that even ultra serious pros couldn't fix without a lot of hassle and imagination. While there is always regulation and some warranty work expected for every horn, I've heard of very few complaints about the premium Buffet horns.
2. True price difference between pro and premium is negotiable. R-13s brand new can be fetched for $1800 or so US. If you dig and scratch hard enough, a Festival can be purchased from just a couple of hundred dollars more to substantially more, depending on how well you can negotiate. In my case, a mere $200 separated the two horns. So, why not go for the supposedly better one? After all, I wanted the left hand Ab/Eb key for my next horn anyway.
3. Pros can afford better horns if they so desire. Sometimes, they can get sponsorship for the horns, too. Amateurs may or may not be able to afford a premium horn, but they will never get sponsorship for them.
4. Why charge more for unstained wood? Less work, less money, right? Perhaps so, perhaps not. Taking the time to hand pick the wood after it's been treated and baked and stored, etc. costs something. Being daring enough to show every single flaw in the nearly naked natural wood is a bit of a bold move on the manufacturers' part, isn't it?
5. It can take quite a few more hours of work for the extra care and workmanship at the factory to get the premium horns to produce an excellent tone with superb intonation. Remember the law of diminishing returns? At the top of the curve, you can double the cost and get less than a few percentage points of improvement in a product. So, if you want the very best product tweaked to the nth degree, be prepared to pay for the workmanship.
6. Want to see a pro player drool? Flash one of these sexy beauties in front of him or her. Like I said before, my pro tutor may be senior, but he is not blind or deaf. You will have a very hard time convincing me that pros can't tell the difference between pro and premium horns just by sound and especially by sight. I've turned pro players' heads more than once just doing warm-ups on my horn.
7. Many amateurs may stick with their chosen hobby because of the initial expense. Some other amateurs play such a good horn for the pure joy of it. Every once in a while, my wife surprises me and says "Since you paid so much for that horn, why don't you practice with it more often?". I catch the hint very quickly and bask in luxury for the next hour or two.
8. Like the extreme majority of middle class folk, I'll never have a Porsche sports car, an expensive computer, join an exclusive spa, tennis or golf club, or enjoy any other luxury like this. Yep, it was expensive and a pure luxury especially for a mere adult novice. You got me on that point. But, like many of my ilk, I run a high risk of heart attack, I already have blood pressure problems. I find it amazing that my blood pressure actually goes down after a hard practice session on my horn. Now, trade a $100,000 heart attack versus buying a $2000 horn as an adult novice. For the vast majority of people, both are once in a lifetime events, right? Even if you had the money, which one would you choose? The horn, right? I thought so.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-06-28 18:39
paul wrote:
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3. Pros can afford better horns if they so desire. Sometimes, they can get sponsorship for the horns, too. Amateurs may or may not be able to afford a premium horn, but they will never get sponsorship for them.
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6. Want to see a pro player drool? Flash one of these sexy beauties in front of him or her
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Can't have it both ways, Paul. If a pro can get a better horn and/or a sponsorship for a better clarinet - they will. It's their tool of the trade. many of those who are sponsored by the factory play on stock clarinets, not fancy ones.
BTW - the only lust I've see from the pros is for a Rossi or Hammerschmidt or their ilk - and not enough in most cases for them to get rid of their current clarinet just to play on one of those. It's not so much the money, either.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2000-06-29 02:57
Regarding Mark's post that the only difference between the Opus And Concerto is the Opus is unstained, there is one other difference: the Opus has a left hand Eb/Ab key. This still would not, in my opinion, account for the big difference in price.
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Author: Victoria
Date: 2000-07-01 22:54
I have to agree that some people do buy the premium horns just because they can. I've been playing clarinet for almost 7 years and I play 4 days a week at school, in my county band and youth orchestra. My first clarinet cost $85 and looking back was falling apart. A few years later I got a Selmer Signet 100 for £ 250 ($400) after swapping teachers and a couple of years it became apparent that it needed replacing because when even when my teacher (a professional) played it it played half a semitone out of tune in parts of the middle register and was even worse in the altissimo and chalameau. After a lot of debate from my parents they decided to spend my grandmother's inheritence and my savings from Christening money and other gifts as a childon a new clarinet for me. After several hours in the shop with my teacher I chose a Buffet RC. I chose this because there was a huge sound difference between that and the E13 and with the discount I got for buying it through the school the price difference was not that great. The premium pros didn't produce a better sound because although I couldn't afford one my teacher got me to try one just to make sure that I never felt I'd settled for second best.
My friend whose family is quite well off had an E13. She got a great tone on it and it played in tune well but about a month after I got mine she started complaining about it and decided to replace it. She went to a shop and didn't even bother to try the pro models, just the premiums and chose a LeBlanc Opus. It seems to me that to ignore the normal pros is conceited as they are excellent instruments and although an extra key is nice (her Opus was a stained one because she didn't like the plain ones) if the sound difference isn't that great is it really worth the money? And no, I don't intend to buy a personalised, hand-crafted clarinet to compete!!!
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Author: Doc
Date: 2000-07-03 03:09
I like what paul had to say, think it was his last comment on, you'll only do it once. I play music cause I love it, it's fun entertaining, thought provoking, and a true pleasure in my life. I loved to play even before I got my pro horn (I am a sax player and a clar doubler). after I got my pro horn it made me feel so much more comfortable... Of course it's not a premium instrument, but still pro grade. I've played a few premium instruments in clarinet and sax models. Played the Festival side by side with an R-13. Loved both, I didn't know the price diff at the time, but I really couldn't tell the diff between each of them, tho I am an accomplished player in my field. I don't know how it works in the clarinet mainstream world, but in sax land, there are many players that have super premium pro grade horns. The horns are their work horses, as pretty as they may be... And yes ther are big leaps and jumps between prop and premium pro in saxes. I hope I gave some of you a kinda better idea on the situation from my point of view.
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Author: Joris van den Berg
Date: 2000-07-03 08:54
There is (according to the people at the factory) one more difference between the concerto and opus: the narrowing of the bore in the concerto is placed about between the regiter key and the A, with the opus it's higher, just after the barrel.
This is also the reason why the avarage Opus has slightly more resistance than the average Concerto.
Joris
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-07-03 12:39
Joris van den Berg wrote:
<br>-------------------------------
<br>There is (according to the people at the factory) one more difference between the concerto and opus:
<br>-------
<br>My talks with people from the factory have resulted in my posting here that there is no difference in bore and register placement between the Concerto and Opus. This was stated to me most emphatically by someone who should know.
<br>
<br>They may have been misleading be, but I don't think so - even the Leblanc catalog, a delightful example of advertising puffery, calls them "acoustical twins".
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Author: Justin
Date: 2000-07-04 04:54
Like your friend, I too come from a well off family. Not to brag, but I am 15 and have a net worth that is slightly higher than the average income. At the beginning of my music course this year, I purchased an E-11, because for me it was fairly inexpensive and I did not know how long I would be playing. When course selection time came around, I decided that I would be playing for at least another year. I told this to my grandfather, and he agreed that next year he would buy me either a Buffet Prestige r-13 or a Leblanc Opus. I do not think this is a case of your friend being snobby or conceited, but rather she is simply buying the best she can afford? Why test drive the Mazda if you can afford the Jaguar?
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Author: Joris van den Berg
Date: 2000-07-05 02:22
The way I got my information was a production manager at the Leblanc factory while i was visiting it ( 8 june this year). I just tell what I've heard, I haven't done any measurements. I do think the difference in playing resistance and sound to be a little too big to be caused by just a different choice of wood
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