 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Amiee
Date: 2001-02-26 20:45
Hey, I was just wondering what you all think about the LeBlanc Noblet Model 40 wooden clarinet. I've been looking at this one for a while and just wondered what everyone thought about it.
Also, does anyone know of a website where you can buy the synthetic cork grease, I've heard rave reviews about it.
Thanks
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Author: Dee
Date: 2001-02-26 21:34
I've known several people that had Noblet clarinets and they were quite satisfied with them. Also Leblanc, the maker, is one of the four main clarinet makers as far as quality goes.
The main thing is to try out the instruments for yourself.
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Author: Doug P
Date: 2001-02-26 22:53
For synthetic grease, try this link:
http://www.doctorsprod.com/
You can also find him listed as "Doctor's Products" under Resources/Retail from the Sneezy home page. I use his grease and it works well for me. He claims your cork will last longer - only time will tell, I guess!
My first clarinet was a Noblet and I liked it very much. If you are looking for a step up from a plastic clarinet, though, I might suggest you look at getting a used pro-grade instrument instead. As Dee said, as long as you stay with the "Big 4" (Buffet, Leblanc, Selmer, Yamaha) you should be all right. Try before you buy (Make sure you have the option to return!)
I feel compelled to add that there are many smaller specialty makers that make great instruments, but I assume that they would all be outside of your budget.
Good luck!
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Author: Corey
Date: 2001-02-27 00:01
U might wanna try a Patricola clarinet from Italy,they have them at the WW&BW for grenadilla,1550.00,& rosewood:1770.00.Keep in mind that these are PROFFESIONAL instruments they have the Eb/Ab lever, a low E vent key, and a special atomatic thrust Bb key. The downside is they don't include mthpce's! but for that price you should be able to come up with something!I was thinking of getting one when i get older (when i make the change from intermdiate to proffesional)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-02-27 11:48
For the SYNTHETIC product look at the above web site under "Cork - New Product", nort "Cork".
A similar synthetic should be available at all outlets which repair woodwinds, but because they are so profit driven they mainly do not stock it, so they don't deserve your business. Order from The Doctor. Trust him. He is practically and scientifically sensible regarding his products! Very!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-02-27 12:47
Gordon - thanks for the kind comments. I have been keeping a log of comments since introducing my products and the new introduction of the synthetic cork grease has brought the most accolades of any of the products. Gordon is right in that many, many of the repair shops use it but few outlets (music shops) carry it because the aerospace grease is so expensive and therefore the profit margin is low - they would rather push the petroleum based "chap stick" grease, seemingly because they make huge profits and not because of their interest in your valuable instruments. The synthetic is a superior product, especially for students who do not like the ritual of greasing the cork a lot, and for those that assemble and disassemble their instruments repeatedly.
The Doctor
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Author: joevacc
Date: 2001-02-27 16:07
I can not speak to the new Noblets, but I have been playing a older Noblet that I bought at a garage sale for 25 bucks and I am finding it very hard to upgrade this instrument. I have been playing other clarinets (new and old) for about 6 months now and have not found one that I prefer. The intonation on mine is very good and the only things I have done is a meticulous overhaul and replaced the barrel. - The barrel cost more than all the parts for the overhaul and the clarinet combined. A good mouthpiece is also a big part of the good intonation.
I'm also interested in the new synthetic cork grease that everyone is talking about. Is it inadvisable to mix it with petroleum based cork grease?
Best,
jv
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-02-28 00:49
Dear JV and all
Just visited a pro friend in Florida and he wanted to try the new synthetic. I took a common paper towel and scrubbed the cork with the dry towel (it is slightly abrasive) and removed much of the old smelly petroleum cork grease until the cork started to turn a little lighter (of course I took the towel home and looked at the residue under a microscope and found both the grease residue and tiny bits of rotted cork). I applied the synthetic over the cleaned cork and he tried it for several days and is now an enthusiastic convert to synthetic. Do not rub the cork too, too much or you will make the fit loose, also do not rub too hard or the cork may flake off due to it's prior treatment causing it to disintegrate. Synthetic of course works best on new cork that has not been overly insulted with petroleum based cork grease but this procedure should get you started. It is not a great idea just to apply the synthetic over petroleum based grease without removing as much of the latter as possible.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-02-28 01:26
I agree. Clean off as much of the gooey mess as possible. I use Mobil's "Pegasol AA" to moisten toilet paper and rub it off. Many solvents attack plastics but I have found this one OK. I expect Omar may have something to say (when he returns from holiday) on how this solvent/cleaner may affect timber, and whether this is significant when done so rarely. I have used it for close on 2 decades.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-02-28 11:15
Just be aware not to drench the tenon or cork in any cleaner. That would very likely damage the cork glue.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-02-28 14:02
Dear all,
The advice that I gave about removing the old grease with a dry paper towel was the most conservative approach for those not familiar with, or who have no access to the proper solvents to dissolve the old petroleum gue. As Gordon suggested, a rag or cloth just dampened with the solvent (and I am not familiar with the Mobil product) and rubbed on the cork alone will remove more of the old grease. If it is a plastic horn be aware that some solvents may dissolve the plastic so be careful in your choice. Some advice that I have given before is to use the drug store denatured alcohol on a slightly dampened cloth. Alcohol is not a great solvent for the grease but it is relatively safe to use - sparingly. The only problem with using a solvent is that it dissolves the grease and may drive it deeper into the structure of the cork, only completely removing it from the top millimeters of the cork surface. If you use highly volatile solvents be sure to do it in a well ventillated space and allow time for all of the solvent to evaporate before reassembling the instrument. Residual solvent could leach the oil protecting the wood surface of the tenon and cause further problems. I reoil the wood surfaces to protect them after using solvent to remove the grease.
The basic problem beyond removing the old grease is that the closed cell structure of the cork has been compromised by using petroleum based grease. Liken the structure to a carboard box (or a lot of them stacked on each other). When the cardboard is new and fit you can compress the sides of each box or the pile of boxes and they will spring back. When you apply petroleum based grease over a period of time it is like dampening (wetting it down with water) the cardboard material which will sag and deform permanently, and the boxes and the pile loose the ability to rebound to the original shape. The box or cell like structure of the cork becomes saturated with the petroleum product and collapses in on itself and will not return to the original shape. This happens to the cork on tenons. When saturated with petroleum grease over time the cork looses its ability to compress and rebound and the actual structure of the walls of the cork cells begin to deteriorate and split apart. Actually, some of the new high tech synthetic seal materials (I have become delighted with some of the aerospace materials while researching the new synthetic products used as cork grease) would probably be a better option than real cork for the tenons but since that is what we have, be aware that petroleum based cork grease will destroy the cork's ability to compress and rebound forming an airtight seal between the joints. The cork will become permanently compressed and the grease (for a while) will be the only seal in the tenon joint. If the cork is not too saturated it can be revived with a natural cork treatment or using a new synthetic product that will not penetrate the cell wall structure of the cork therefore it will retain whatever compressibility is left in uncompromised cork cells.
Sorry for the long winded answer but it may give some cautions and insight about using petroleum based cork grease on cork.
The Doctor
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2001-02-28 17:33
Dear all,
Mark is constantly asking us to share facts and not opinions so I thought that I would share some cork experiments that I recently performed in testing my new synthetic cork grease, versus my natural cork treatment, versus a well know brand name petroleum based cork grease.
Just wanted to share some photomicrographs with you - this will be like a radio advertisement where you must draw the picture in your mind.....all these are in comparison with dry new cork and new cork hydrated at 90% relative humidity for one week at 37C. ( Caveat --- Elevated temperatures are often used to approximate accelerated stability conditions but are necessarily not exactly the same as temporal experiments but scientists use them often).
1. Cork treated with petroleum cork grease and allowed to age at 37C - about 96 degrees F for a week shows cork cells that are flattened and shriveled. Cell walls collapsed and tears and bits of cell wall dislodged.
2. Cork treated with natural plant based cork treatment under the same conditions shows intact cells with normal architecture, cell walls slightly swollen as noted in hydrated control cork samples.
3. Cork treated with synthetic cork grease shows normal intact cell walls and cell architecture with slight wrinkling or shrinking of cell walls as seen in dry cork control sample.
Cork samples were then compressed with heavy weight by 1/5th. total thickness for four hours.
1. Cork treated with petroleum grease showed most cork cells flattened, torn and no recognizable normal cork cell archtitecture. Bits of cell wall were everywhere.
2. Cork treated with natural plant based cork treatment showed > 90% normal cell archtitecture, no tearing or rupture in cell walls and slightly swollen cell wall structure similar to hydrated control cork samples.
3. Cork treated with synthetic grease showed >90% intact cells with normal archtitecture, more wrinkling in cell walls, a few flattened cells, no tearing or rupture of cell walls. Not dissimilar to dry cork control sample.
Experiments were repeated on three separate cork samples from three different specimens of cork with similar results. Other measurements too numerous to give here were also taken to quantify other parameters of cork response.
Happy cork greasing --
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-01 03:39
Don't use denatured alcohol on plastic instruments. More later when I have time.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2001-03-01 10:24
Back again..... The more I research the more complicated it gets. I believe what US calls denatured alcohol is ethyl alcohol (as in booze) with about 9% methyl alcohol (to 'denature' i.e. make it poisonous), plus maybe a nasty taste and colour. "Down Under" we call this 'methylated spirits'.
I'm sure I can recal using this on an ABS plastic (typical for clarinets) where it destroyed the molecular structure and made the plastic extremely brittle. I may be wrong. Information on the chemical compatibility site, http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/chemcomp/icrd2.asp
records that methyl alcohol is highly incompatible with ABS, which confirms my suspicions.
However this site also records that toluene is highly incompatible. Toluene is a component, as far as I know, of the "Pegasol AA" I have been using as a tenon cleaner for years with no problems.
Hence my confusion. Perhaps incompatibility MAY be not too significant for SOME solvents when they are used only as a quick damp wipe.
Who knows? More expertise is needed. In the mean time select solvents with caution!
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Author: amiee27
Date: 2001-03-01 20:42
Hey, thanks everyone for the help with the synthetic cork grease question.
It's really been useful.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2001-03-02 18:32
Yes de[bad]natured alcohol is ethanol [C2H5OH] with at least one bad-smelling-tasting additive like methanol [CH3OH -POISONOUS] or an aromatic like benzene, toluene, xylene [strong solvents] etc. If you can recall, Mobil's "logo" of years past included the "Flying Red Horse" Pegasus!!.. Nearly all gasoline makers [like my Phillips 66] have alkylation processes for making high-octane fuel AND some "heavy alkylate" , a very clean paraffinic-hydrocarbon solvent named Soltrol by P 66, probably is Pegasol by Mobil. Much of the charcoal lighter fluid is this HA 's big market!! I use it to remove old glues from tenons, works well and evaporates slowly with no residue. It prob would clean corks with LIGHT application as it has less solvent power than rubbing [iso propyl] alcohol [C3H7OH]. As others have said, be cautious in the use, and inhalation, of solvents, there are many "baddies" out in the chem world!! "Nuff said? Don {Ch E}
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Author: chinaboy61
Date: 2007-03-04 02:51
Ok here is some advice! I bought the Noblet 40 when I was 10 years old and played it for 5 years. When I was 15 I borrowed my friends Buffet E11 and OMG! The tone was AMAZING and its was so much eaiser to get a nice sound. noblets tune real nice while buffet instruments are usually lost during tuning time. But tuning can always be adjusted and the buffet clarinets i played always blow away my noblets sound. Not to mention in 5 years my noblet 40's clarinet keys are COMPLETELY all tarnished away and the plating is peeling...boo...GO E11.... but let me remind you that a friend of mine plays a Noblet 45 with no problems.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2007-03-04 04:14
chinaboy61 wrote:
> Ok here is some advice
This original thread is 6 years old. Your advice might be a bit late ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
> noblets tune real nice
> while buffet instruments are usually lost during tuning time.
??
Please explain that sentence ...GBK
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-03-04 05:22
First I will also recommend the Doctor products. Another nice thing is that he doesn't charge the customer a lot more than the actual shipping cost (like some other suppliers) and he ships with a reasonable method that is not too expensive in the first place.
I have tried both the natural and the synthetic cork grease from him, and I decided I prefer the natural much more. I don't use cork grease every time I assemble the clarinet, but only when I feel like it is hard to assemble without it. I found with the natural cork grease that is about every week or two on average (sometimes more than two weeks, but rarely less than a week). With the synthetic cork grease which is supposed to last even longer without reapplying, I found I actually had to use more often, most likely because assembling the joints removed most of it as opposed to the natural cork grease. So I recommend the natural cork grease from the Doctor.
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