 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: 2E
Date: 2007-02-12 04:30
Hi everyone,
I am wanting to improve my tone and think it might be time to change some of the equipment im playing on. I currently play the following set up ...
Clarinet - Buffet R13
Mouthpiece - Vandoren B40
Ligature - BG Revelation
Reeds - Vandoren Traditional 3.0
Barrel - Standard that came with the Clarinet
Recently I put on some size 4.5 Daniels reeds and they played great just like the Vandoren 3s do. Im thinking about buying a new mouthpiece but am not really sure what type of sound im really aiming for yet. I guess I love the Eddie Daniels pure tone and would be aiming for that. Atm im playing very sharp so maybe a longer barrel? Arghh I just dont know what to do, its all very confusing. Im just about to start studying music at university and want to make the right decision before I go out trying all sorts of things and waste time and money. What should I do?
thanks, 2E
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-12 13:51
My husband, who is by no means anything but an amateur, has gotten absolutely remakable results, tonally, using a Chadash barrel and a Greg Smith #1 facing mouthpiece (his Christmas gift this year) on his (my) R-13. He also uses my old Spriggs lig -- about the lightest metal ligature out there, I think -- and Vandoren V-12 3.5 reeds.
Really, the positive change in his tone color and intonation was instantaneous and dramatic. I did not know a mouthpiece/barrel combo could make that much difference.
So, if you've got something like $300 to play with, you might look into that combination.
Susan
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-12 15:48
The equipment that's going to make the most difference is your mouthpiece, reeds, and barrel. Keep the clarinet and ligature the same for now. The first thing I would recommend is to try to up your reed strength. A Vandoren 3 traditional is more of a beginner/intermediate reed. I don't know much about the Eddie Daniels reeds you described, but I recommend switching to a V-12 reed. The blanks are a bit thicker. They will last longer and generally give you a better tone with most mouthpieces. The sharpness may be because you are using a reed that's too soft, which can cause you to pinch the throat or not support the airstream properly in order to achieve the proper resistance. Maybe start with 3.5 V-12's and work up. Also, learning to adjust the reeds is very helpful.
In terms of buying other equipment like mouthpieces and barrels, I would suggest you consult a good private teacher, and go to a store (or mail order) where you can try several setups, because even within the same brand and model, there is variation in these products. Here are some setups that I have found work well together.
Vandoren M13, M14, or M13 Lyre with a Moennig barrel and 4.5-5 V12 reeds.
Richard Hawkins B mouthpiece with a Chadash barrel and same reeds.
I play R-13 clarinets.
The Vandoren mouthpieces tend to bring the pitch down, so maybe that will help your sharpness. I use a shorter barrel when I use those mouthpieces.
The Hawkins tends to raise the pitch, so either pulling out or a slightly longer barrel works well.
Now, these are only suggestions of what you might try. Don't spend a lot unless you're sure you're satisfied and a good teacher says it sounds good. And when you're trying stuff, only change one piece of equipment at a time. You might find a new mouthpiece that works well with your current barrel, or a new barrel that works well with your current mouthpiece.
Good luck to you!
Lori
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2007-02-12 16:04
claritoot26 wrote:
> A Vandoren 3 traditional is more of
> a beginner/intermediate reed.
What? Sez exactly who?
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-12 17:13
My sentiments exactly!
Funny how Vandoren don't make reeds in strengths of 6, 7 or 8 for advanced or pro players, isn't it?
Well they do - just get a 5 (which is ONLY an amateur/enthusiast strength reed!) and put it on the other way round, or just lift a floorboard from your house and use that.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2007-02-12 17:19)
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2007-02-12 17:34
My opinion is that the changing of equipment can lead to positive changes but I believe that it's the "new" perspective that makes you see, hear and play things differently ..... which can be a good thing.
So my first suggestion is to ensure that you are really using your air column to its fullest advantage. Blow with a VERY steady, concentrated, thin stream of air (use your intercostal muscles between ribs, keep stomach out as you blow out, leave tongue low and in natural position as if you were saying "EEEEEE").
You'll find supported air will add volumes (pun intended) to your sound both in timbre as well as loudness.
As for the Vandoren mouthpieces. I personally love them. I would say that you may want to root around the line a bit more. You may fing some real winners for yourself. Try the M15, or the 5RV Lyre, or the M13.
One more Vandoren note (no pun intended). The Series 13 (so called American pitch models) are the lower pitched ones. The non- Series 13 models are not endowed with this nouveau lower pitch.
.................Paul Aviles
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Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2007-02-12 20:04
I agree with some that most of my improvements have had to do with mouthpiece choices. With an R-13 I highly recommend Greg Smith or Walter Grabner if you want to get a fantastic mouthpiece for under $300.00. If you want to go a bit higher in price you might want to work with Morrie Backun or Brad Behn. All 4 are gentlemen with great reputations and they want you to be happy. I've gotten equipment from all 4 and can personally attest to their credibility and professionalism.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-02-12 21:15
> *** A Vandoren 3 traditional is more of a beginner/intermediate reed. *** <
"Open tip" mouthpieces require "softer" reeds. "Close tip" mouthpieces require "harder" reeds.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Dano
Date: 2007-02-12 23:41
Marketing is so powerful. I don't think a Vandoren #3 is a begginers reed at all. I use La Voz Med. reeds which work with my mouthpiece. Whatever works for you while you are getting paid to play, makes whatever you use "a professional reed".
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-02-12 23:52
I play a Vandoren M13 Lyre with V12 4 reeds and I can't understand how anyone could play that mouthpiece with a 4.5 or 5 reed!?!
That seems like a really stiff setup to me. Whats your secret?
Post Edited (2007-02-13 00:02)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 00:14
"That seems like a really stiff setup to me. Whats your secret?"
Lockjaw?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-02-13 03:01
> *** Lockjaw? *** <
Usually these "number 5 reed players" place their teeth VERY close to the mouthpiece tip or shaves (balances) the reed until it fits the mouthpiece. This is how someone manages to play Vandoren 5 reed.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-02-13 15:33)
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Author: 2E
Date: 2007-02-13 05:07
Wow! Thank you everyone for your responses. I'm overwhelmed with your suggestions. I definately will talk to my university teacher to see what he/she says. As for now, I doubt Vandoren reeds are the problem. Perhaps I'll look into mouthpieces (perhaps the 13 series as my B40 is quite old and worn) and possibly some other brands like the Greg Smiths. Any other comments please keep them comming! im intrigued by what you have to say about my issue
many thanks,
2E
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Author: jack
Date: 2007-02-13 05:12
I just switched to a Vandoren Klassick ligature. I have never tried any other ligature that has made (my perception) my tone sound so beautiful and just plain sparkle. It makes playing seemingly so much smoother (easier?) right out of the box and is just plain fun to play. The difference in playing with it is not slight, it is huge. I read just a blurb about on some other thread a couple or so weeks ago and ordered one. I am thankful to whoever mentioned it. Today I ordered a Klassick for Alto Sax as the aforementioned unnamed pointed out that it would fit a Bass Clarinet mouthpiece.
Jack
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-02-13 05:31
You are all wrong about the size 5 reeds (except Lori). Many of the revered players who taught many of us played these reeds.
*** I forgot to mention that this is really only an american thing. I had a friend who played the size 5's went to perform in Europe, and couldn't find anything harder than a 4. He had to buy a new mouthpiece in order to continue performing, i guess one with a larger tip opening***
I play size 5 v12 my mouthpiece is a 102 tip opening. I also use a double lip embouchure. I put quite a bit of mouthpiece in my mouth. The facing length of my mouthpiece is 18 mm.
The esteemed principal clarinet of the National Symphony, feels I use reeds which are a little too soft. He uses the 5+. Also, Anthony Gigliotti used size fives. He is the one who turned me on to them. Prior to using v12 5s, i used v12 4, they lasted about 3-4 days. On the other hand, i have used size 5 reed, playing many hours a day at conservatory, for probably 3 to 4 weeks.
The secret is having an excellent mouthpiece with a long facing, probably 18 or more mm, and a tip opening around 100 give or take. But the main part is being able to properly balance the reed. And then, you got have some very well developed air support, good shape of air stream. A lot goes into it.
v12 5s also work excellently on a Hawkins B or R model.
If you want to use size 5 reeds, and i strongly encourage you to do so here are some mouthpieces i have used with them succesfully.
Gigliotti P, M15 Vandoren, Genussas work too.
Enjoy some hard reeds and really get a good sound. I can think of some esteemed players who sound good on 3/3.5s. I have no idea how that is done. It actually tires my embouchure far more to play on a reed that is too soft, which does not keep the sound together. I have to create too much embouchure pressure to perform on a softer reed. in fact, performing on a reed that is too soft causes me to clamp down. Seems opposite i know, but if properly initiated, you will find that performing on a 5 is actually for easier, creates and more vibrant tone, etc than any 4, or even 4.5.
Post Edited (2007-02-13 05:42)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 11:01
I use an M15 which has a reasonably close tip and relatively long lay, but I only use a 3.5 (or 3.5+ depending on lack of consistency) Rue Lepic on that (which is the strength for someone who's only been playing for about a week, so it seems), and an absolute beginner's White Master 3 on my Yamaha M3D mouthpiece on my Oehler.
So I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to be able to play on such soft reeds! Not really, I'm playing on the strength which I feel is comfortable for me, and I don't see the point in struggling against a very resistant setup.
My teacher's setup was a Selmer C85 115, Vandoren V12 3 and a Luyben ligature. I'd like to hear his reaction on this, though it will have to be censored a lot due to the amount of expletives.
Which makes me ask the question - what kind of embouchure are you lot using?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2007-02-13 11:30
Chris P wrote: "I only use a 3.5..... I must be doing something fundamentally wrong to be able to play on such soft reeds!"
At least you have that extra 0.5 to save you! I'm playing on V12 strength 3 (which are even softer than regular 3) so it's a wonder I am able to get a sound at all.
I tried very hard reeds one time (Vandoren 4.5 I think) and had a really great sounding fffffffffff....... (no, not a fortissimo, but an air sound). RodRubber said "I can think of some esteemed players who sound good on 3/3.5s. I have no idea how that is done". How can you say that and claim that "performing on a 5 is actually for easier, creates and more vibrant tone, etc than any 4, or even 4.5" (and I assume 3.5 and 3 are included too)?
Lori when you say: "Vandoren 3 traditional is more of a beginner/intermediate reed" how do you explain the fact that many professionals and some of the best and most successful players in the world play on these sizes of reeds?
Post Edited (2007-02-13 11:33)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 11:46
Is there any way of measuring embouchure pressure? I think this will make interesting reading - fit some kind of (electronic) pressure sensitive patch to the mouthpiece and see how we all compare.
I know I use a firm embouchure, but would be interested in carrying out such an experiment to see if there are regional differences and comparisons with top players - if only I had the equipment.
On my A1 crystal I use V12 2.5 reeds which are fine, though I prefer the mouthpiece beak to be much thinner (as in the 'Profile 88' type).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2007-02-13 12:37
Yeah, Chris -- those crystal mpcs can really be . . . well, a mouthful!
First time I tried to take clarinet lessons, I had a teacher (symphonic player) with THE most gorgeous, silken sound. More flutelike than clarinetlike. I was transfixed! I wanted to sound like him!
So, very obligingly, he provided me with a copy of his setup -- a Mitchell Lurie crystal mpc (don't know the length -- not long, anyway), with a medium tip opening. And a box of Queen #5 reeds, and a BG "Revelation" ligature.
I think you can pretty much fill in the blanks as to what happened next. Even after he showed me how he worked down his reeds, I couldn't make the thing go.
More recently, dealing with Greg Smith (a pleasure!) in the selection of a mouthpiece for my husband, I understood that Mr. Smith prefers a close-tip mouthpiece, Chadash barrel, and V-12 3 or 3.5 reeds, on an R-13.
It is a very un-fussy setup -- simplicity incarnate -- and best of all, it works for us!
Susan
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Author: bufclar
Date: 2007-02-13 13:19
It just goes to show that everyone is different and no set up is the same for everyone. I know many "famous" players who play on 4's or 3.5's and they all sound incredible. Very interesting!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-02-13 15:40
> *** But the main part is being able to properly balance the reed. *** <
Are you saying that after you balance your reed it still holds the strength of Vandoren 5?
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2007-02-13 15:51)
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-13 15:46
This is all very interesting, you guys! I'm sorry, I did not mean to offend anyone by saying a 3 is more of a late beginner/intermediate reed. I think it just matches the wide tip opening mouthpieces that come with the beginner clarinets. Of course, there are also professional style mouthpieces that take softer reeds. I once had a teacher who sounded pretty good on Vandoren traditional 3's, but I think usually used Marca reeds. When I tried his reeds on my setup, they felt like tissue paper and had no resistance! But, he sounded fine.
I think RodRubber agrees with me because we have the same teacher who teaches a very open-throated, well-supported and free blowing technique with a fairly strong embouchre. He also taught us to balance the reeds to the mouthpiece. So, a 5 V12 ususally doesn't play great right out of the box, but if I balance it properly, it gives a more robust sound and last longer than a softer reed. The reason I don't use softer ones is that by the time I get the right and left sides balanced, it becomes too soft and makes the sound "pinched".
Now, I am curious about the identity of Rod-Rubber. Will email you directly to find out. Hmmm.
-Claritoot26
Lori
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-13 15:47
But I still think starting a beginner on a 3 is one way of getting them to stop very quickly indeed and is no way of helping them to develop an embouchure, and probably just as bad as shortening the barrel so they can play 'in tune'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: RodRubber
Date: 2007-02-13 16:03
Clarnibass,
Many times, a vandoren reed size 4 can feel less vibrant, stuffier, slower than a 5. Perhaps this is because the tip is about as weak as a wet noodle. Since the five, working properly (balanced tip etc) it feels easier to play, perhaps because it is really vibrating.
Vytas,
As for balancing the reed, i really take only an extremely modest scrape generally off the left side of the reed, and that gets it done. I would say that the 5 strength remains for the most part. I generally use reed rush to balance the tip of my reed. Occasionally, if the reed feels stuffy, i scrape a little bit from the lower parts of the reed to sort of loosen it up. Also, if the VD cut is too short, i take my reed knife and scrape that away. However, often these reeeds play flat.
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-02-13 20:42
My opinion is that it's more difficult to play on a open mouthpiece with a soft reed than on a closed mouthpieces with a hard reed. Giora Feidman use Vadoren regular #1 and his sound is not metalic. It's how you play. I even thought he was using #2 reeds when I heard him first.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2007-02-13 22:03
2E -
Your setup is one that many fine players use. Any professional player would sound good on it.
The closer to you something is, the more it affects yuor tone. The lower joint as more effect than the bell, the upper joint more than the lower, and so on.
However, the chain doesn't stop at the mouthpiece. Your embouchure is much more important than the mouthpiece, and your tongue is more important still. And your soft palate, pharynx, lungs and support muscles are the most important of all.
All playing depends on the breath -- as Arnold Jacobs said, on wind and song. When your breath is right, everything else falls into place. When it's not, nothing else can be right.
Think you're blowing right? Bet you're not. Stuff a handkerchief or cloth swab tight up the bell, finger third-line B and blow. You'll get a puny-sounding Eb. Blow harder, to get a nearly full Eb. Then move the back of your tongue and soft palate to voice higher harmonics (like whistling). Play some bugle calls. Then, pull the handkerchief out and play normally. If you're like the rest of the world, your tone will be twice as big and three times as loud as before.
Then read the Charles West article (on tongue and palate position) cited in my posting at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=237319&t=237287, plus the material on ligatures.
You can probably improve your equipment, too. The Vandoren B40 is quite long and open. You should at least try the 5RV Lyre. Better yet, get a matched professional quality mouthpiece and barrel from Greg Smith or Walter Grabner. Remember, though, that none of these are anywhere nearly as important as you yourself.
So, (1) Blow, (2) Sing, and (3) Practice.
Ken Shaw
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Author: claritoot26
Date: 2007-02-13 22:47
Well, I don't START the beginners on 3, but they work up to it. I have 3 ten-year-olds who started lessons in December, but had been playing for a year. They were on 2's, now I've worked them up to 2.5. Maybe in a couple months, they'll be on 3. After that, they probably stay there for several months to a year, then we'll upgrade the mouthpiece and work on good air control so they can use a harder reed and get some sound. Dinner time, gotta cut it short.
Lori
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Author: 2E
Date: 2007-02-14 01:22
Ken, as always your exactly right.
I have tried this excersize before and have gotten quite skilled at the singing/voicing overtones/bugle call practise.
My technique isnt perfect and i suppose my breathing could be better.
Ill work on this too and see if my tone improves, if not perhaps a Greg Smith would be nice.
Thanks everyone for your help! please please, continue debating reed strengths and makes of mouthpieces haha
2E
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-02-14 04:00
Reed stengths are dependant on the equipment that are designed for them. Reed strength seldom have much to do with embouchure. Embouchure strenghth has more to do with endurance than reed strength. I've said this before, but a 4-5 reed will blow as easy and free on the proper mouthpiece (close tiped) as a 1 reed on the proper mouthpiece (very open tip).
All I have had to do to prove this is to 1st teach proper breathing, 2nd show most of my students the reason their having jaw problems from biting so hard is because the reed they are using is in fact too soft, and collapsing on them/shutting off. When a reed is vibrating, there is hardly any "biting" at all. The mouthpiece can actually be moved while being played on when I move it without a disruption in sound. There is barely any biting on the mouthpiece, or pinching with the embouchure at all.
A good M13 Lyre with a 3-3.5 vandoren blue box or V12 will allow you to sing, and not fight with your equipment. This is assuming your equipment is in top notch shape. There would be no unwanted restrictions form leakage, etc. Intervals in high register become easy to sing through vs struggle through.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2007-02-14 16:15
> *** "Reed stengths are dependant on the equipment that are designed for them. Reed strength seldom have much to do with embouchure. Embouchure strenghth has more to do with endurance than reed strength. I've said this before, but a 4-5 reed will blow as easy and free on the proper mouthpiece (close tiped) as a 1 reed on the proper mouthpiece (very open tip)". *** <
That's not entirely true. For MOST players Vandoren 5 reeds are way too hard and unnecessary step to take. I don't see anything wrong if someone finds that Vandoren 5 reed sounds and feels fine for them.
Many young players think that a stronger reed makes them sound better and that is wrong and misleading IMO. You must find a reed that fits your mouthpiece and not the other way around.
I used to play the close tip mouthpiece (0.92 mm) in the past and never used anything stronger than 3.5 on it. Now, I prefer more European set-up; a mouthpiece with an open tip and softer reed. I never use anything stronger than Vandoren 2.5 on my 1.25 mm tip mouthpiece. I still occasionally use a close 1.02 mm tip mouthpiece with Vandored 3.5 reeds on the 18.5 mm long facing. I get identical resistance from both set-ups. It makes no difference whatsoever how these different setups feel for me. The only difference is the tone color.
Vytas Krass
Clarinet Repair
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: Clarinet4hire
Date: 2007-02-14 22:48
"For MOST players Vandoren 5 reeds are way too hard and unnecessary step to take. I don't see anything wrong if someone finds that Vandoren 5 reed sounds and feels fine for them."
That is kinda' what I was saying, only that you would find that equipment is designed for certain strength reeds, because players have differring tastes. The harder the reed one uses, he will find he is blowing on a more closed tip.
Post Edited (2007-02-14 23:58)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2007-02-14 22:55
I always thought a harder reed requires a closer tip.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2007-02-15 08:08
Thanks for this great discussion. I've always used V12 #3s and always work on the whole box several days in a row before even trying them on the clarinet to remove raised cane due to wetting. They are, to me, a little hard even then and I put a V shaped scrape on the tip to make them easier to play. They easily play to double high C and they all play very fine. The same procedure works for students but one has to make sure the reed vibrates freely on their mouthpiece. None really play right when used directly from the box.
Recently, my dentist removed the caps on four upper front teeth and will soon have a permanent bridge for them. On trying the double lip embouchure with the temporary bridge, I find it tiring and less easy to play the very high notes. Your comments about long lays and/or very closed mouthpieces make me think I might have tried that with a double lip embouchure in order to make it easier or possible. I appreciate your comments.
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