 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-05-19 08:32
Could anybody tell me what the relationship is between B & H and LaFleur? I understand that LaFleur were originally music publishers and have read that they bought stencils from Couesnon, but I have recently bought a very nice Bb LaFleur clarinet which appears to be pure B & H. The keywork seems to be pretty much the same as an Edgware or Imperial, the body and ringless bell are likewise similar. I paid peanuts for it and apart from suffering from perhaps 70+ years of storage it is in almost new condition. The pads and corks are rotted out, but after some TLC it should be fine. The wood is excellent.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-19 13:00
B&H bought the names of several companies and stencilled them onto some good instruments and a lot of not so good ones - Lafleur being one name that was stencilled on Italian (Orsi), East German (B&S) and Czechoslovakian (Amati) instruments as well as some French instruments (Malerne).
I've mainly seen Lafleur stencilled on Czech clarinets, saxes, bassoons and brass instruments and also on a few East German saxes. So for an actual B&H clarinet to be stencilled Lafleur shows it wasn't all bad - similarly with Malerne cors anglais (I've yet to see a Malerne oboe stencilled Lafleur Artist, although I'm sure some have been).
A couple other company names that suffered the indignity of their reputation being trashed by B&H were Louis and Rudall-Carte whose names were found on really poor quality imports.
Out of interest, what's the serial number on your clarinet?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-05-19 16:49
Hi Chris, serial number is 123114. It has metal tenon caps and put side-by-side with an Imperial upper section the LaFleur is identical down to the recesses in the wood for screw heads and the metal inserts for leaf springs to slide on. If it follows B & H numbering it places it around 1955, but I think LaFleur were extinct by then.
Tony F.
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Author: Caroline Smale
Date: 2015-05-19 23:26
Tony, 123114 agrees with my listing as 1955.
I have seen quite a few B&H clarinets stenciled as Besson, Rudall etc and even no name (seconds?) but they almost invariably had "Made in England" stamped on them.
The numeric stamping of the serial number is invariably exactly the same pattern of figure as B&H used on own name models.
One definite check is the screws threads - the rod screws were 9BA and the spring screws 12BA. and the rod diameters were pretty unique to B&H and certainly not metric.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-20 00:04
The rod screws B&H use are 2.2mm if you do measure them in metric and an M2x0.4 thread is near on identical to the 9BA they use, so they can come in very handy for taking the wobble out of Selmer MkVI alto and tenor sax crook keys by reaming all the necessary out to 2.2mm and fitting a B&H rod screw in there instead.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-05-20 02:22
Thanks Gents. I've checked the rods and screws against my Edgware and they're identical. I remember working on a Besson Westminster a few years back which was also an Edgware clone. Useful thing to know about the Selmer MkVI.
Tony F.
Post Edited (2015-05-20 07:29)
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Author: 4accord
Date: 2015-05-25 08:01
Attachment: LaFleur bell.JPG (177k)
Attachment: Albert, Brusselles, Maker, LaFleur Sole Agent.jpg (38k)
Attachment: 17, Green Street postcard.jpg (54k)
Attachment: LaFleur cased.JPG (362k)
Have spent a fair amount of time studying this very same question, as I have an 1880-ish LaFleur clarinet which led me to do some research. Some of this is speculation, but much of it is confirmed, and here's what I put together. J. R. (Joseph Rene) LaFleur (1812-74) was a much-respected violin bow maker in Paris who established a partnership with Jules Prudence Riviere of London, and in 1857 they published a band-related journal, "Alliance Musicale," under the short-lived "Reviere and LaFleur." Reviere then went into business with William Hawkes (of B & H) in 1876, at 28, Leicester Square, until 1889, when son Oliver Hawkes came into the business. LaFleur and Son operated at 15, Green Street, Leicester Square (now Irving Street) from 1862-1911, but I suspect it was primarily the son, borrowing his father's good name. LaFleur, of course, did not make instruments but only imported them, certainly from France and Belgium. He also published sheet music. I am not sure that Cuesenon was their clarinet supplier - have not found evidence to support this, and my clarinet has M.T. in a diamond under the upper- and lowermost keys, possibly Martin-Thibouville. I can establish that LaFleur imported clarinets by Albert of Brusselles and Martin Freres of Paris. In 1917, LaFleur and Sons was associated with a different address a short distance away at 147, Wardour Street in the name of Oliver Hawkes. My assumption is that the LaFleur son died and the business was sold to Boosey & Hawkes in or before 1917, and B & H had exclusive rights to use (and did use) the LaFleur name perhaps as late as 1940. I attach a few photos and hope this is helpful.
Post Edited (2015-05-25 08:07)
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Author: Tony F
Date: 2015-05-25 09:54
That's a nice piece of research, thanks for passing it on. I note that one of the names on the upstairs window of 17 Greene St is Fischer. There was a major music publisher of this name and I suppose that they were in some way associated with LaFleur. Interesting. My clarinet is a Boehm, and much later than yours. Probably towards the end of B & H's use of the name.
Tony F.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2015-05-25 11:08
The name Lafleur was being used possibly into the early '80s on imported woodwind and brass instruments made by Amati - they were later stencilled as B&H 400 series which were all entry level instruments.
A schoolfriend of mine had his granddad's old Boosey&Co. simple system C clarinet in the old brown leather quiver-style case which had an ill-fitting Lafleur Bb mouthpiece stuck in its barrel. I freed it and shortened the tenon on a Noblet mouthpiece so it could be played. But it was high pitch. He also had his dad's 1950s Edgware which was still in its original black covered case with yellow stitching and burgundy interior, complete with the care booklet with all the replacement key numbers so they could be ordered, grease tin, mops and reed cards from the era. Although this clarinet was an Edgware, it wasn't stamped with any logos at all (but carried the serial number and 'Made in England' below the lower joint socket ring).
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: 4accord
Date: 2015-05-25 16:37
This is good to know. Just goes to show that Internet research can be sketchy. I had read specifically that B&H used the LaFleur name until 1941, but clearly it was much later than that. I should have mentioned that my very old one is an HP made of cocus (am pretty sure - definitely not ebony or grenadilla). It also was never corked. All the joints were threaded and waxed, and the wooden mouthpiece threads were in three different colors from (I assume) home-made replacements over the years. The original seems to have been black, and when I removed it, the tenon grooves were squeaky clean with no residues - nice to see (and that's how I know they had never been corked). I debated and decided to cork them, because I read some very convincing research that thread, once wound, becomes like a cable and can actually lead to deforming of the wood (though mine shows no evidence of that). I also find threaded joints to be very unforgiving and am dead scared of cracking the sockets, which is all too easy on these oldies. With much trepidation and great difficulty, I was able to remove all but one of the screws so as to oil and repad it, and it shines like new now. Even if it played like pure dirt (it doesn't), it would be an amazing piece of art. In fact, any and every wooden clarinet, to me, is a remarkable art form. The things I never appreciated or even thought about as a kid in the school band! Oh, I should also have mentioned that the postcard I posted translates as "A corner of France in England" - and it's interesting how the writing on the window is in French, and Leicester Square was obviously the epicenter of London's music publishers.
Post Edited (2015-05-25 16:43)
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