 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ChrisArcand
Date: 2006-10-05 00:21
Yes yes, I know, "This has been talked about a lot on this board".
I've been reading a lot tonight into the history and specifics of my 10G. I checked and now notice that my barrel is indeed coated in ebonite. I am an aspiring clarinet major, and am becoming a great player (or so I'm told!) but I'm not going to pretend that I can truly tell that much of a difference between barrels and their slight differences (though I haven't had enough exposure to trying different types of barrels, either).
So, does anyone have an opinion about the coating, if it hinders in some way, or recommend that I further look into this at this time? It's more for my own experience and knowledge - don't think I'm going to just go out and buy a new barrel because I'll be all paranoid that my barrel isn't "good enough". I understand that it's all about the player.
Thanks!
Chris Arcand
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-05 14:38
I've just overhauled a 10G (M73xx) and I think the ebonite barrel linings are a good idea, especially as the barrels are a vulnerable part of the clarinet.
On play testing it, it has a bright, Buffet-like tone in comparison to my Series 9 (which is part of the 10G concept anyway), but I did seal all the exposed end grain in all the sockets. The keywork is well made, looks like nearly all parts are CNC machined, the tonehole bedplaces weren't too bad, but I had to work on all of them anyway.
I wonder if any clarinets have a lined (or partially lined) top joint?
But I think if you're happy with the clarinet and barrels the way they are, then stick with them - though there's no harm in trying out anything else.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-05 15:21
Chris:
You brought up a point that I have wondered about for some time . . . why don't manufacturers line their clarinets? For many many years bassoon makers have lined the tenor joint (and sometimes the entrance side of the boot joint) to protect them from moisture induced cracking and to seal the instrument from leakage from cracks induced by other causes (age, temperature changes, etc.). So, why don't clarinet manufacturers (and oboe makers, too . . . they are even worse to crack) just put some sort of lining in there. Certainly there are materials they can use that will fully transfer the vibrations to the wood for that "natural wood sound". Is it just a psychological thing - playing a lined clarinet is not professional, but rather like playing a cheap plastic student model? Maybe Doc can go after this one in his myth busting endeavor.
Eu
Post Edited (2006-10-11 20:34)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-10-05 15:24
Hi Chris X 2 - I had a brief look-see at a friend's inherited 10G, and don't recall any unusual barrel features, but will ask at tonite's rehearsal. Ch-P, the Pruefer "Silver Throat" U J [of the 50-60's ?] has a thin metal ?Ni-Ag? lining, making it a bit heavier, but a good player nevertheless. My 1932 Sel R I [F B] has a metal lined barrel extending into about 1 " of a top- enlarged UJ, preventing any barrel experimentation, dern it !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-05 15:55
I do like the idea of the telescopic barrel as on your RI as there's no 'void' left between the top joint tenon and the socket. But as you say, you're stuck with the matching barrel so there's no chance of experimenting with other barrels.
(Hypothetically speaking) Worse still if you have an RI of this type and the barrel is MISSING! Then what?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2006-10-05 16:32
Here is the scoop as relayed to me by someone **who should know:
Anthony Gigliotti was experimenting with barrels and designed his own using an ebonite liner. The design was incorporated in his 10G plans. (circa 1965, and his boat at the time was named the Ten G...he had it on a trailer outside his East Oak Lane home when I had lessons with him)
He favored a fairly resistant model and once offered a noted **technician the opportunity to make them. The technician (near Phila area) is a busy one, and told AMG he couldnt devote a lot of time producing them.
When I first started making barrels I wanted to check out the product, but his corporation did not respond to my email request. Alas, AMG died before I had a chance to discuss it with him....He was a friendly man, and I am certain he would have been delighted to chat with an old student.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
Post Edited (2006-10-05 16:34)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-10-05 21:54
Chris,
I've always wondered about this:
When you finish an oboe, do you just hit it in the head with a hammer, or is it more like a ritual killing a la the Japanese practice of seppuku?
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2006-10-05 22:55
Clark Fobes older barrels have a delrin insert in the bore. I have one and it is a fine player.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2006-10-05 22:56)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-05 23:17
"When you finish an oboe, do you just hit it in the head with a hammer, or is it more like a ritual killing a la the Japanese practice of seppuku?"
That practice is only reserved for B&H Regent, Lark and all other oboes of a very low order (not naming any other names at present). Though their bodily remains are still useful (if not even more so) after slaying - a Regent oboe lower joint and bell was used to hold open a sash window behind the counter in the sax department of the London showroom.
While we're on the subject of oboes, and tying it all up nicely with the topic of bore linings, Howarth do partially line the top joints with ebonite in some wooden oboes and cors (both on pro and student models) - reason being that plastic is a pain to work with, so partially lining the top joint bore down to the C tonehole is a much better alternative to a completely plastic top joint. Not only for manufacturing reasons, but in terms of stability under temperature fluctuations where plastic isn't stable (in all directions) , and also under humidity fluctuations where wood will expand and contract widthways.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: Chris Hill
Date: 2006-10-06 04:59
When a clarinet bore becomes too large with age and use, Guy Chadash will ream out the bore af the upper portion of the upper joint, and insert a hard rubber insert.
Chris Hill
Disclaimer: While people assume that, as Guy's partner in mouthpiece making, I have some connection to his clarinet making business or repair business, I do not.
Post Edited (2006-10-06 05:01)
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-06 12:33
"When a clarinet bore becomes too large with age and use . . . "
Huh? Does this mean that I shouldn't blow my clarinet any more than is strictly necessary as I would soon erode away the wood in the bore from all the hot air I push through there. Does that mean that a horn with less resistance isn't wearing away as quickly and will last much longer? Maybe I should pass this along to Doc?
Eu
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-10-06 13:14
Good thot, Eu, Prob. a idea for L O H"s "discussion, among other "urban legends" ? Re: oboes, Jack Linton back in the ?50's? had a patent issued on the plastic insert fitted to their ZRX [played one for years] series of oboes [E H's also] ?. Will find/report #, it is findable as a reference cited in later oboe pats, also a polypropylene bassoon !, which was "commercialized briefly. Ch-P, are you aware of 5 [I believe] pats on the Boehm system oboe by Dick Paladino [was a Las Vegas musician for years?]. I gave copies to Jack L while discussing his making one for me with gold plated keys, just didn't pursue it, lack of interest and money !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-06 17:01
I wouldn't mind an oboe (and cor anglais) with sax mechanism - keyed up to high F# or G if possible. Simple reason that as a sax player I can get around the top notes and remote key signatures much easier on a sax than I can on oboe.
If I was to make one for myself, the chances are it'll have to stay in one piece like a soprano sax - so each socket ring will have to have a locking screw like those on some bass clarinets so it stays together - and either plenty of grease or wax in the sockets to seal them to stop water sitting there.
There's plenty of scrap joints (usually with surface defects so they won't be used for anything) so I can at least experiment getting the tonehole and pillar positions right, then copy them onto better joints once I'm happy with them.
"When a clarinet bore becomes too large with age and use . . . " I better stop mopping the bores of mine with that old wire brush then.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: nickma
Date: 2006-10-10 17:16
Decent though the lined 10G barrels are, the 10G unlined versions are far superior in my opinion. When you conduct a side by side test, it's night and day.
Chris P might be interested to know that Jon had secret stash of 10G unlined barrels - not sure but think may have been used as a design reference for a much older Howarth model. Anyhow I bought them from him, and they are are marvellous.
Also, did you know that Ralpoh Morgan makes amazing barrels for the 10G - and as we all know, we knows a thing or two about their design - that are arguably even better, a steal at $150.
Nick
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2006-10-11 17:27
Some 10G barrels were lined, some were not. I played a pair of 10G's for years, and neither barrel was lined.
I replaced both barrels as they were oversized and caused the 12ths in the upper joint to be too wide (read flat throat tones, sharp upper clarion).
That's how I originally got into barrel making, as I found that I could make a more "in-tune" barrel than either the Buffet Moennig or Chadash barrels, for THESE PARTICULAR CLARINETS (making no universal claim here.)
I have of course, heard of and have examined many lined barrels. Ebonite would not be my first choice, nor would Delrin.
A barrel lined in quality hard rubber, can have excellent acoustical properties. It would also have greater stability and resistance to humidity variations.
So, why don't we all have rubber lined barrels?
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Barrels by Zinner
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-11 17:37
Ebonite = hard rubber in my and many others' books.
What's the difference between ebonite and high quality hard rubber? I always thought they're one and the same thing.
Is ebonite a different substance (ie. a non-rubber based synthetic) in the US?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-10-11 18:56
A few points:
1) It might be difficult to build liners for polycylindrically-bored clarinets (I'm not sure how one would do this).
2) Why not bypass the liner problem and build the entire clarinet (or, to start with a baby step, the entire barrel) out of hard rubber (which is indeed also known as 'ebonite' as Chris P stated)? It's an ongoing controversy, but I still maintain (from the standpoints of mechanical and acoustical science and my own empirical experience) that hard rubber instruments (or components) can, and in the past have, sounded identical to comparable wood instruments or components made of grenadilla.
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Author: EuGeneSee
Date: 2006-10-11 19:10
David:
"1) It might be difficult to build liners for polycylindrically-bored clarinets (I'm not sure how one would do this.)."
Wouldn't they just insert the rubber liner (which would have an undersized bore) then machine the polycylindrical bore in a manner similar to turning such a bore in a solid wood tenon blank?
Eu
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-11 19:39
As clarinet top joint bores are wider at the top end, the reamer (of the correct dimensions) will always have to go in from the top to open the bore to the finished size - so polycylindrical bores on a lined top joint are just as easy to make as unlined bores. Bottom joints don't need to be lined.
To hide the join between the liner and the wood, a metal tenon cap will probably be fitted to both tenons.
The age old problem with ebonite bodies is the sulphur in the ebonite which will turn silver plating black - so the plating on all keys, pillars and other plated fittings will either have to be in nickel, rhodium or gold.
Does platinum oxidise like silver when exposed to sulphur?
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2006-10-11 19:45)
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-10-11 23:49
Platinum is relatively inert, and will not combine with sulphur (or, as my boneheaded employer, the US Dept. of Labor insists on spelling it, "sulfur") under conditions of normal temperature and pressure.
(As an aside, I read last month that a little known use for platinum was as a disk to engage the rifling on the Confederate Navy's super cannon, the Brooke rifle. One hopes that it didn't cost as much back then as it does now.)
As I recall the original ebonite formulation, there was a significant amount of lead (in the form of white lead, I believe) in the mix. I have "wipe sampled" an old Albert junk horn that I had back in the 1970's, and just a surface contact with the body of the instrument was enough to turn up positive.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-10-12 01:34
I remember seeing the stamp on the old ebonite-bodied Selmer (London) Console clarinets saying 'Steel Ebonite' (I think these ones were made either by Lark or Hsinghai) - so I suppose the lead has been substituted with steel when it was realised lead was poisonous, and well before current EEC regulations came into practice.
I think it's in Anthony Baines' book where it says 'India rubber, lead and sulphur' were the main ingredients in ebonite.
I thought the US spelling of sulphur was 'sulfur'.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
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