 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-10 21:34
I had my YLC-450 adjusted and the tech said the C key needed adjusting but I'm still having a problem with squeeking and bad sound. It seems like it does ok when I first start playing but then starts getting bad later in the practice session. Like the reed is getting soggy. Also it only squeeks and squawks when played alone with no other notes. Usually if I play other notes before the B it sounds ok. I'm using a VD #2 reed with a 5RV lyre mouthpiece. Does anyone have any ideas.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-10 21:41
Well...try different reed strenghts. The reed, the mouthpiece, the weather and the embouchure have to match, magically. Happens to me too.
When in such a situation, I grab that Légère reed that is immune to moisture issues and try again. Most often the problem then vanishes. I then file the case under 'compatibility issues' and be done with it. 
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2006-06-10 22:41
When I first returned to clarinet playing (about 15 years ago) I had trouble getting the middle B to speak. My pads were sealing fine, but a combination of reed, mouthpiece, embouchure, and support problems showed themselves most on the "long B"
Since then I've chosen a mouthpiece that works well for me, settled on a reed that works well for me, learned how to evaluate and adjust reeds, and have improved my embouchure and air support.
I no longer shake with fear when my part starts on " the dreaded long B".
I tend to have a slow learning curve, so you will probably solve the mysteries of the clarinet faster than I have, but all of the above can enter into it.
This bulletin board was the source of much of the info that, together with practice, have helped me to improve. The journey is never ending, but I've come a long way in the past 15 years.
Thanks for the help guys!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-10 23:09
YCL-450,
To make sure that it's not an equipment problem, have an experienced player test your instrument. And try some other clarinets to see if you can play this note on them.
Assuming your equipment is in good working order, you may need to spend more time practising. I think this has been suggested in another thread. There is no substitute for it.
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-10 23:56
hans wrote:
> YCL-450,
>
> To make sure that it's not an equipment problem, have an
> experienced player test your instrument. And try some other
> clarinets to see if you can play this note on them.
>
> Assuming your equipment is in good working order, you may need
> to spend more time practising. I think this has been suggested
> in another thread. There is no substitute for it.
>
> Hans
The tech that worked on it is a pretty good player and he made it sound good with no B problems so I know it's me or my setup or both. I'll just have to keep trying fixes until I find a solution or just plain experience will probably solve a lot of issues. I have another 450 that does the same thing so I know it's me.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: EEBaum
Date: 2006-06-11 00:05
Think of resonating the entire instrument. Realize that the B requires a lot more airstream than the A and A# below it. Think of it as a much physically lower note.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: seafaris
Date: 2006-06-11 00:10
If you are not having problems with the other notes then more than likely the soggy reed is not the culprit. When I was playing cane reeds (I use legere now, which have their own problems) and they got soggy, I changed them about every 1/2 hour. I also found that waiting a while after eating, more air support, and experience had helped to decrease the soggy reed problem.
If you are not having a problem when you play other notes, but just when you play the "B" alone I would guess it is your embouchure. Maybe you are tensing up in anticipation of the problem. It could also be your timing with tonguing the reed and your fingering. I would assume that your instructor should be able to help.
...Jim
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2006-06-11 00:15
#2 is rather soft for a 5RV-L. try a #2.5 or #3.0.
that and what Hans said. have someone else play it. Practice.
some private lessons would be a good idea also.
practice.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-11 02:38
YCL-450,
Because you "have another 450 that does the same thing so I know it's me.", I suggest that you turn the mouthpiece (so that the reed is on top) and then ask an experienced player to finger the note while you blow. That may narrow the problem to being caused by either fingering or embouchure/reed/mouthpiece deficiency.
Like Paul and others, IMO you need a teacher and some private lessons to solve this problem and prevent bad habits before they become too well established. Although this BB is a wonderful resource, not every playing problem can be solved through BB correspondence.
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-11 05:25
#2 is rather soft for a 5RV-L. try a #2.5 or #3.0.
that and what Hans said. have someone else play it. Practice.
some private lessons would be a good idea also.
practice.
Yeah, I've been going to a teacher. Two lessons a month. I will try a 2.5 VD reed but It might be too hard. I may have to work up to that.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarnibass
Date: 2006-06-11 05:57
Next time you have a lesson, assuming your teacher is at least a reasonable player, have him play the B note with his mouthpiece and reed. No problem? Have him play it with your mouthpiece. No problem? Have him try it with your reed. No problem? Have him finger the note and you blow. No problem? Have him blow and you finger the note. Still no problem? Then he just needs to figure out what you are doing wrong when you play it, which is impossible for us to do over the internet.
A strength 2 reed is not too weak for a reasonable player to be able to play the B note easily regardless of mouthpiece. I play a pretty open mouthpiece with strength 3 reeds. I'm definitely not the best player technically, but I was able to play with my cousin's (when he was a beginner) much more closed mouthpiece and 1.5 strength reeds just fine (except altisimo).
Good luck.
Post Edited (2006-06-11 06:06)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2006-06-11 11:24
I assume your tech checked to see that there's proper clearance between your left hand pinky keys. Improper clearance here can inadvertently slightly open a key that should be closed. Or one of your left hand fingers is accidently opening a key or not closing it completely.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2006-06-11 14:02
Excellent rec's above, my thots are, which litle finger do you use for B? If its the Right, you may have a thumb rest problem [it may be too low] which may make covering the Rt 1st and/or 3rd rings/toneholes securely quite difficult. If its the left L F [only], try tapping the Rt F/C touch to see if it is tightly closed. One of my "warm-ups" is to play the first few bars of 76 Tmbs. starting on open G. There you will find that G and A will still sound well with your Rt hand B fingering already in place. Try it, works for me! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-11 15:22
I learned to play the long B as LH E/B plus RH F/C, especially when it's articulated and not part of a downward slur.
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2006-06-11 21:12
Given the fact that most clarinets are not perfectly set up I always figured that using both pinkys gave more assurance that pads closed completely....and I think that's what most teachers of beginners thought too.
Bob Draznik
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pewd
Date: 2006-06-11 21:26
i dont like that approach - it hides maintenance issues. if you need both fingers down to make it speak, the horn needs a trip to the shop.
i make my students play scales both ways - e.g., C scale left B, right C
then again Right B left C. i don't want them thinking of one as primary and the other as alternate.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Avie
Date: 2006-06-11 21:31
I have succumed to using both pinkys myself. I am recently self taught and I got to the point where I can get a better tone rather than using only the lft. or the rt. pinky. I am happy to hear that teachers of beginners prefer it. I always thought that I could be making a technical mistake by not using just one pinky for clarion B.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-06-11 21:38
i dont like that approach - it hides maintenance issues. if you need both fingers down to make it speak, the horn needs a trip to the shop.
Beginners with Gorilla Grips (TM) tend to bring those keys out of adjustment quite quickly. (Gimme a silver-keyed instrument and I'll show you). Plus most pinkies are simply undertrained, not everyone can exert just the right amount of pressure from day one. I learned with both pinkies, now I can do with one depending on the passage.
i make my students play scales both ways - e.g., C scale left B, right C
then again Right B left C. i don't want them thinking of one as primary and the other as alternate.
Hmm. I can't spread my right pinky away far enouth to blindly reach (and hit) RH B. I might've flunked your class. :(
--
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-12 02:18
Can moisture collecting in the tone holes cause problems? It's pretty hummid right now where I live and the horn tends to collect quite a bit of moisture. I swab it every once in while but the swab doesn't get in the tone holes.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-06-12 03:43
Unless said moisture is rotting the pads faster than you can play (not just the dampness, but rot), I don't think moisture is your problem.
Does the B squeak when you descend to it in a slur from a higher note? How about from a lower note? Or...is it just when you try to start on the B with articulating it?
If it really is just squeaking when you play it while tonguing it, you may be moving your lower lip while you start to blow. Keep the lip still and then blow. Also, what kind of squeak is it? Is it a shrill "non-note" or is it merely another partial in the harmonic series (i.e. a much higher note)? These are the kinds of things I look for when I have a student with similar problems just with one note.
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-12 11:54
Katrina wrote:
> Unless said moisture is rotting the pads faster than you can
> play (not just the dampness, but rot), I don't think moisture
> is your problem.
>
> Does the B squeak when you descend to it in a slur from a
> higher note? How about from a lower note? Or...is it just
> when you try to start on the B with articulating it?
>
> If it really is just squeaking when you play it while tonguing
> it, you may be moving your lower lip while you start to blow.
> Keep the lip still and then blow. Also, what kind of squeak is
> it? Is it a shrill "non-note" or is it merely another partial
> in the harmonic series (i.e. a much higher note)? These are
> the kinds of things I look for when I have a student with
> similar problems just with one note.
>
> Katrina
It mostly happens when I start out on that note. Sometimes it will make no sound and I think when it squeeks it may be a partial as you suggested. Also it usually doesn't do it when I first start playing. It gradually starts and gets worse. If I change the reed it will be ok for a while. Oddly the Rico 2-1\2 reeds seem to be immune to the problem but they start sounding bad after while.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2006-06-12 14:52
"...i don't like that approach - it hides maintenance issues. if you need both fingers down to make it speak, the horn needs a trip to the shop...."
I totally agree! When the pad alignment, pivots, post security, and linkages are well adjusted for these keys, they have a high degree of reliability.
However these adjustments are needed on almost every brand new instrument.
YCL-450, it sure sounds like an intermittent leak problem that the technician has not picked up.
Possibly low B key needing extra pressure for complete sealing of the pad - pressure that you do not always apply.
Possibly the pad on the low ring key and/or A/D ring key needing extra pressure for complete sealing of the pad - pressure that you do not always apply.
Possibly a finger not quite sealing on a tone hole, when you slightly alter your posture or hand angle relative to the instrument.
Possibly a finger is lightly touching a 'banana' key when you slightly alter your posture or hand angle relative to the instrument.
Possibly a poorly adjusted bridge key, such that the right hand ring keys need additional pressure, which you only apply SOMETIMES.
Possibly it is after you play throat A, because of a wide range of spring/spring groove/pivot/pad problems that can stop throat A pad from completely sealing for a while.
Possibly.... etc etc
Post Edited (2006-06-12 14:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-12 15:09
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> "...i don't like that approach - it hides maintenance issues.
> if you need both fingers down to make it speak, the horn needs
> a trip to the shop...."
>
> I totally agree! When the pad alignment, pivots, post
> security, and linkages are well adjusted for these keys, they
> have a high degree of reliability.
>
> However these adjustments are needed on almost every brand new
> instrument.
>
> YCL-450, it sure sounds like an intermittent leak problem that
> the technician has not picked up.
>
> Possibly low B key needing extra pressure for complete sealing
> of the pad - pressure that you do not always apply.
>
> Possibly the pad on the low ring key and/or A/D ring key
> needing extra pressure for complete sealing of the pad -
> pressure that you do not always apply.
>
> Possibly a finger not quite sealing on a tone hole, when you
> slightly alter your posture or hand angle relative to the
> instrument.
>
> Possibly a finger is lightly touching a 'banana' key when you
> slightly alter your posture or hand angle relative to the
> instrument.
>
> Possibly a poorly adjusted bridge key, such that the right hand
> ring keys need additional pressure, which you only apply
> SOMETIMES.
>
> Possibly it is after you play throat A, because of a wide range
> of spring/spring groove/pivot/pad problems that can stop throat
> A pad from completely sealing for a while.
>
> Possibly.... etc etc
>
>
> Post Edited (2006-06-12 14:54)
Well I just played with my old Yamaha 4C mouthpiece and it made a lot of difference. The middle B as well as all the other higher notes were much much more stable. I will try it on my other 450 tonight when I get home and see if I get the same improvement. If not then there is a problem with that particular horn. I think I may have made a blunder when I bought the VD 5RV Lyre mouthpiece. They recommend min #3 VD reed. There is no way I could play that hard of a reed so I have been using #2 VD which is way too soft apparently and I think that's my problem. I'm going to stick with the standard Yamaha mouthpiece which sounds pretty decent with a #2 VD reed. I can't undersand why the 5RV is recommended for beginners when it requires at least a #3 reed.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: D
Date: 2006-06-12 18:49
Out of interest, can you play bottom E without problems? and when you slur E to B (move thumb) what happens with your mouth?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-12 19:01
D wrote:
> Out of interest, can you play bottom E without problems? and
> when you slur E to B (move thumb) what happens with your mouth?
I can play low E with no problem. I don't think I have ever tried to slur from E to B but I will give that a try and see what happens. I went back to my Yamaha 4C mouthpiece today and am having better results with my mid B and other high notes. I have another 450 at home and I plan to try my 4C on it. I will probably stick with the 4C though. The VD 5RV I think is the root of my troubles. I'm not sure why the 4C does better but I never had a problem with it before I switched to the 5RV. Serves me right for messing with a good thing.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: hans
Date: 2006-06-12 22:14
YCL-450,
You seem to be confused about the names... 5RV is not the same mouthpiece as 5RV Lyre.
Hans
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: YCL-450
Date: 2006-06-12 22:55
hans wrote:
> YCL-450,
>
> You seem to be confused about the names... 5RV is not the same
> mouthpiece as 5RV Lyre.
>
> Hans
The 5RV Lyre is the one I have. I guess I didn't make that clear enough.
Sorry for the confusion.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
