 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-04-17 01:04
Hi,
When I saw the thread on the price of MPs lately I was struck by three thoughts. Either I am exceeding thrify, I am the world's best bargain hunter, or my idea of professionally acceptable equipment is way off the mark.
I play a lot of wind symphony work as well chamber music and quite a bit of jazz. My primary clarinet is:
1. A low-mileage LeBlanc L200 that I got on eBay for less that $300 (I put about $120 into it for a repad and adjustments). This clarinet plays perfectly in tune in all registers and responds like a charm.
2. The same Portnoy BP02 I have been playing for 30 years; the tone and response is as big as ever. Initial cost of $25.
3. A well-used used original Luyben, Gigliotti (both have big brass screws an d fittings), or an old Lurie. Total cost of all 3 was less than $20.
So, I have around $450 in my #1 clarinet (the Selmer 9* and the Buffet Academy that are backups are just about as fine and in the same price range). I guess my point is that "do you need to spend so much on an instrument/MP?" Is more expensive that much better? With woodwinds, we are not talking about hi-tech now, are we?
Do you have a cheaper/better professional setup (no Bundy's or Vito's please).
HRL
PS All my primary saxes are Selmer Mark VIs. I used the alto on one of my first professional gigs over 50 years ago. These were outstanding instruments - and not cheap - at the time; who knew I'd be playing them so long.
Post Edited (2006-04-17 03:22)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: pmgoff78
Date: 2006-04-17 01:22
I'm lucky in that I have acquired some gear without having to pay for it. Regardless, my upper limit on a ligature is $50....and that's alot. My upper limit on mouthpieces is around $150....anymore seems ridiculous to me. I still play on the Hite M41 mouthpiece I got with my R13 when my parents bought it at the local music store in 1990!
Probably the most I spend per capita is on neck straps (for Bass Clarinets). When the DeJacques were $50+, I spent it...they rock!
I agree that you can play professionally on an inexpensive setup, but sometimes you have to go out of your way to get what you want. Example: I play on two Harrison Bass Clarinet ligatures (no longer in production, and no the new H series Rico doesn't count) I'd have to pay out the nose to get one...I'm willing to do that. I also have a vintage Selmer D mouthpiece. I'd pay serious cash to get another if I had to. Otherwise I can't part with that much money.
I used a Leblanc 400 series Bass from the 60's as my primary horn that was sold to my parents for $1500. That's not bad considering how well that instrument plays. The 430 I play on now lists close to $10,000(who knows how much it really SHOULD be(probably not $10,000), but $10,000 sounds cute, huh? ;o). I got it off Woodwind and Brasswind for $5500, didn't play test it, and it is great!
To me that's the way to go. Extra bells and whistles do very little for me, but sometimes you feel as though you need it. In any event, you CAN have a sweet setup for very little money (in comparison to what most folks would think it SHOULD cost).
Just my $.02
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bnewbs
Date: 2006-04-17 02:05
Hank, your finding some bargains. My backup (E12 MM, VD M13) was about $450. I put a $1000 into a main clarinet, and I am considering a new one. Ijust got a $190 mouthpiece, I have a $65 mouthpiece and an $85 mouthpiece. probably another $70 in 3 ligatures. I got my Alto on ebay for $200 (+$75 for pads, adjust and what not) and another $140 for mouthpiece and ligature. And I feel like I am fairly thrifty when it comes to my set up.
I would say need to spend more no. For most peple, my self included more practice will help more than anything. But I would love to get my hands on a Rossi or a Selmer signature.
Ben
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: stevesklar
Date: 2006-04-17 02:10
Before kids I used to test play horns to find the "best of the crop" This was usually done at retail or discount (such as wwbw). That's the only real way to find the best setup and sounding instrument - at least in comparison shopping.
My latest instruments though have been through ebay. You can't argue about the price. A nice Leblanc for sub $300 when they sell at wwbw.com for $1200 + just can't be justified anymore with kids.
Ligature-wise. Rovner and Vandoren Optima are my two favorite. Quite a price difference but they do wonders and are normally one time purchases. I also have a Luyben i bought in the 70s.
Clarinet wise, i'm still trying to determine, at least with Leblanc, whether the Symphonie, Classic, old series, and other models are what i'm looking for. I've done research on bore sizes and my biggest question I have yet to answer is .. large or small bore (or in between) for spread or centered tone. Might have a buy several off of eBay and comparison shop on my own ......
But my current clarinet - Leblanc LL was $283ish, Noblet 45 $112ish
I do woodwind repair so overhauls are really cheap for my own labor.
I haven't gotten the mpc bug yet. I own several. Woodwind K9, Selmer C85s, HS*/HS**, Noblets, Vandoren, and several others. But buying a mpc over $150 does sound somewhat extravagant to my wallet.
The only thing *i really need* right now is an articulated G# clarinet, maybe even a full boehm. But even on ebay a nice Selmer CT recently went for $812, past the $$$ i wanted to spend on one.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-04-17 03:18
With all due respect, Hank, I think I've got you beat in the cheap department -- you've seen some of my horns, all of which have come to me from the Internet Auction Site Whose Name Shall Not Be Mentioned, and since I do all my own mechanical and mouthpiece work, my actual dollar investment is absurdly low. But I have to hand it to you, you give me a run for the money in the Cheap Axes contest!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Cowchick
Date: 2006-04-17 03:20
Hank,
No Wonder you asked whether Red Oxx has an outlet store on the "Cases" thread!!! You'd blow your entire low budget image out of the water if you paid full price for a case cover!! :-)
SLR
aka COWCHICK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-17 11:16
I'm an amateur, but I like playing on good equipment, all of which I've bought used, either via private sales from neighborhood musicians or at flea markets, yard sales and "junktiques" shops. The only new clarinet I've ever owned is the Conn Director my dad bought for me in 1957. I keep it for sentimental reasons, but I don't play on it any more. I think used instruments are a great value, not just for cheapskate reasons but because a lot of the old instruments are fine quality and well worth restoring and playing. As an amateur, I don't have to care that my Buffet clarinets in Bb and A are "obsolete" (made in 1937 and 1931, respectively)--they're good clarinets. My saxophones are all dinosaurs, mostly made in the 1920s (my best: King Saxello soprano, Selmer alto and C. G. Conn alto, C-melody, tenor and bass). I never could have afforded the modern equivalents.
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-04-17 12:28
I found my current set of Series 9 full Boehms on eBay, the S-series A cost around £600 and just needed an overhaul (which is a routine thing for me) - it was already in silver plate which was a bonus and I don't think many full Boehm A clarinets are easy to come by, and I found a new old stock 68mm barrel for about £25 as well, as this one came to me with a 10S barrel.
Then I found an A-series Bb for around £300 (though not as good as the older ones, but it's still good), but I had this silver plated to match the A (as it was in nickel plate) as well as repair a split on the back of the bottom joint socket, bushed the G# tonehole and padded it - I've only spent the time doing them up rather than spending a fortune on them by getting someone else to do the work as I know how I want them set up, and I don't know anyone else I could trust to cork pad them as some of the other repairers in the area think cork pads are 'an old-fashioned way of doing things' when they can't even seat leather pads!
The mouthpiece is a new Vandoren M15, ligature is a Rovner which I've had for about 18 years.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2006-04-17 12:59
How about this -
1967 R13 bought new in 1967 for $325
1968 Kaspar mouthpiece (with ligature) bought new for $35
(With all the clarinets/mouthpieces etc.. that I now own, I appreciate these the most because all the money used to purchase this equipment was earned as a teenager caddying at the local golf course after school and during the summers)
Total original cost $360
Amortized over 38 years of use - less than $10/year
Perhaps we also need the contrary thread: "How Expensive is Your Professional Setup?" to see who has paid the most for a complete setup of customized clarinet, hand made mouthpiece, designer barrel, bell, etc... ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2006-04-17 13:58
To me, it's all part of the "most of the quality is north of the mouthpiece" concept. While I persist in my affection for particular instruments, I still am able to do a yeoman-like job on just about any horn that I should have to use.
Most of your talent as a musician resides in your embouchure and brain, and it will "out" when you play any horn in relatively decent working condition. Given a mouthpiece and reed combination that meets your personal specifications, you're already 90% of the way home before you even assemble the rest of the instrument.
However, it's not in the best interests of the manufacturers for us to have this realization, as upon the rock of "new and improved" is built their church (so to speak).
Having said that, I went and tried the current line of Selmer horns a couple of weeks ago, and found that the articulated G# key is a thing of the past. So, I visited the after-market and found a "full Boehm" Series 10S at a reasonable price. It won't replace my Series 9 instrument unless it has to, but the lifeboat is now on its way and ready to be placed in the davits.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2006-04-17 14:20
I have a backup Bb setup that I used to use with my woodwind quintet when I didn't want to carry (or unpack) my double case:
Clarinet: Buffet R13 (1968) - Purchased several years ago at a pawn shop for $44.75. (OK, the pawn shop gave me a 50% discount on this one because I also purchased an L7 from them for $100!) I overhauled it myself. Cost of pads, corks, oils, glues, etc. - around $20). BTW, the clarinet came with two good professional mouthpieces, neither of which I play. One would likely bring $20-$30 on eBay, the other $80-$100. This clarinet is actually 5 years newer than the R13 I bought new while I was in college and still play as my #1.
Mouthpiece: Mint condition Bay MO-M on a Chedeville blank. Came with a plastic Linton clarinet I purchased on eBay for $75. After overhauling the clarinet, I sold it for around a $25 profit so the mouthpiece was essentially free.
Ligature: A new Rovner. Messed up here and paid full price -- around $15 at the time.
Best regards,
jnk
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-04-17 14:29
Hi,
Great comments here.
JNK, too bad you messed up but it all comes out in the end (my wife is still remembering the time she paid full-price for a name-brand jacket for my birthday but I still wear it and love it).
I'd like to think of myself as a "late adopter" rather than a cheapskate. DS may have me beat, though.
HRL
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Burt
Date: 2006-04-17 17:06
Pre-R13 Buffet 45xxx NEW $135 (1956). I've put a few times that amount on servicing.
Backup: Normandy - free from oboist friend who gave up trying to double.
Buffet "A" (est 1930) $600 (1995)
The Martin tenor NEW $275 (1954)
The Martin alto (est 1960)$175 (1975?)
Martin Committee bari (est 1965) $1300 (2004)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-04-17 18:36
1969 R13 purchased used in 1983 by my folks: $500
(currently playing) Borbeck 13 (from around 84): $50? (I don't remember how much it was then...)
Bonade inverted: $7 then
Plastic mp cap: $2 cause I lost the free one...
total: priceless! (to quote a commercial)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinets1
Date: 2006-04-17 19:44
either i look in the wrong places or the flea markets you people go to have secret handshakes, but i can never find anything worthy at yard sales and flea markets. I have picked up a couple of ligatures on bargain tables before at music shops.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: super20dan
Date: 2006-04-17 23:52
believe it or not back in 1996 -i got a buffet r-13 at a pawnshop in perfect condition for 200$ . i may even have thrifty dave speg. beat on this one!. other bargins include a leblanc LL for 100$. a leblanc synphanie for 200$ , selmer brevett for 90$ and a dead mint (that benny would die for) selmer BT for 300$
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Merlin
Date: 2006-04-18 02:22
My setup right now?
Free.
Got a sample clarinet, sample mouthpiece and throwaway lig. Just pay for the reeds!
My main big band/show clarinet is a 28 year old Selmer 10S ($750 CDN in 1977) with a Vandoren B40 that I paid $60 for, and a Bonade reverse that probably set me back $20.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-04-18 20:52
not cheap. Leblanc Opus II, Kaspar Cicero or Grabner or Glotin Chedeville mouthpiece, Backun bell, Allan Segal barrel (or Backun barrel depending). How did you guys do it? I guess I'm never in the right place at the right time.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2006-04-18 22:05
Hi Brenda,
I think one just has got to have a certain mindset that "there are some things that are just too over-priced to be that much better." As far as cars, I drive a mid-level near-luxury car that is still rated as a top machine and on the links use last year's hot-item golf clubs x 6 years ago (the 1996 model that I bought in 2003 as NOS for a fraction of the original cost).
My question all too often is "does technology/innovation always trump tradition." I don't think so when it comes to woodwind isntrument. A very good read for all bargain-hunters out there is The Millionaire Next Door. There are some terrific lessons there for all of us paupers.
But there are those on this BB that might pay top dollar for Monster Cable for their stereos when regular gauge wire does as well. I do have three top-sounding 5 channel setups here that have Yamaha surround recievers and in two cases use Advent speakers and Cambridge sub-woofers. Terrific sound at just a few dollars.
HRL
PS I just got a mint Portnoy BP02 (the original two band one) that plays as good as my main MP mentioned earlier. The cost was $22.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-04-18 22:45
GBK,
Is it realistic to consider 1967/8 purchases in 2006 dollars?
According to the consumer price calculator at:
http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
$325 in 1967 dollars is the equivalent of $1933.46 in 2006 dollars. This would be a pretty good deal for a new R-13 today.
$35 in 1967 dollars is the equivalent of $199.84 in 2006 dollars. This not be that cheap today, but not awful either.
So your purchases are really the same as $2,133.30 in today's dollars, still a pretty good deal.
Regards,
|-(8^)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-18 23:53
Ralph Katz wrote:
> GBK,
>
> Is it realistic to consider 1967/8 purchases in 2006 dollars?
>
> According to the consumer price calculator at:
>
>
> http://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl
>
>
> $325 in 1967 dollars is the equivalent of $1933.46 in 2006
> dollars. This would be a pretty good deal for a new R-13
> today.
>
> $35 in 1967 dollars is the equivalent of $199.84 in 2006
> dollars. This not be that cheap today, but not awful either.
>
> So your purchases are really the same as $2,133.30 in today's
> dollars, still a pretty good deal.
>
> Regards,
>
> |-(8^)
Ralph,
Not completely. You have to figure in the value of years of the use since 1967 and the residual value of the instrument as well as the expected value of return of money and taxes.
If $360 had been invested in 1967 and achieved a historical average of 7% annual return in the stock market, in 2006, it would be worth $5038. The true cost of ownership was $5038 - $2133 or $2900 with an annual PRE-TAX dollar cost of ownership of $76 (in 2006 dollars) over the 38 years. Still cheap given what $76 purchases today, but not $10/year.
Note that the above does not include the approximately $750 in federal capital gains tax you would pay on your investment profits and approximately $500 in NY capital gains tax you would also pay, so your actual capital gain in terms of what you keep is less. If the tax is figured in, your approximate cost of ownership would be (($5038 - $2133 - $1250)/38 = $1655/38 = $43/year). The true cost of ownership is probably about $43/year in after tax 2006 dollars but only if your clarinet is now worth $0.
If you adjust the cost of $1650 in after tax dollars by the resale value of the clarinet (let's say $1250), you do back into GBK's estimate of about $10/year. If the resale value is less or more the cost goes up or down. Technically you also have to pay capital gains tax on the increase in your sales price of your clarinet from your purchase price, so your $1250 horn may only be worth about 80% of ($1250 - $360) after taxes, especially if it was used in a business. Of course, if it was used entirely in a business, you probably also could have tax deducted your original cost, either in the year it was made or through a depreciation schedule, depending on what the tax laws were back in the late 1960s.
[Mid April of each year can make you think like this. It makes your head spin.]
$10/year in 2006 dollars is actually a pretty good estimate, even if it was not arrived at using the correct (and complicated) formula.
George
Post Edited (2006-04-18 23:56)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Meri
Date: 2006-04-19 00:00
Not counting reeds and the occasional adjustment or repair job, I don't spend that much on extras either, nor did I spend a lot on my instrument, a late 1960's R-13 which I bought in 1997 for $600 CDN, and then another $125 to put it in good playing condition and $60 for an adjustable thumbrest. I got my first good-quality mouthpiece through Clark W. Fobes, when he was giving free samples of his mouthpieces (years ago), I played that for 5 or 6 years before the tone quality deteriorated, and refacing didn't help it much. I bought my current mouthpiece, an M15, for $35 at Gary Armstrong's street sale about 2 1/2 years ago, and my ligature (Vandoren 771, the fabric type) for $40. So my current set up cost me $960 CDN.
Meri
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2006-04-19 01:29
D'oh!
If you figure in depreciation, you don't have to sell the instrument for more than you paid for it to show a net profit.
But, who ever said a clarinet was a good investment?
Now here is something - who drives a car to gigs that cost less than their instrument?
|-(8^)
You know the difference between a clarinetist and a Certificate of Deposit?
The CD is a better bet to attain maturity and generate income...
Signed,
A "Driving For Dollars" Musician
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Katrina
Date: 2006-04-19 02:28
Ralph,
I know a flute player whose flute cost more than her car. She doesn't drive the car any more cause she lives in NYC, but her Powell is certainly more useful than any car!
FWIW, my setup cost less than my 99 Saturn SW2 (bought new...see above for used cost of my clarinet setup).
Katrina
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: clarinetgirl09
Date: 2006-04-19 02:54
I'd say that my setup isn't exactly cheap...Especially being a high schooler. It'll last me quite a while. Hopefully.
Buffet R-13 (bought December 8, 2005): $2,600
Grabner K11 mouthpiece (my main mouthpiece): $170
I also have a Pomarico Crystal Emerald M: $90
Gigliotti #4: $105 (wish I never bought it)
Some other mouthpieces (Hite D and J, Hite Premier (two of them), and some others): $190-$200.
Optimum Ligature: $50
Inverted Bonade: $15
Rovner Dark: $15
BG Traditional Silver Plated: $54
And the usual expenses of V12 reeds.
I'm just gratefull for all that I have. Why can't things be less expensive? The prices are a killer for some things. I wish I could make my setup cheaper now...
__________________________________________________________
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Music is a sory told from your soul; a story of passion, of life. Share your story.
Post Edited (2006-04-19 03:00)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-19 13:05
Ralph Katz wrote:
> D'oh!
>
> If you figure in depreciation, you don't have to sell the
> instrument for more than you paid for it to show a net profit.
>
Right. If it is fully depreciated, anything you sell it for is a capital gain.
> But, who ever said a clarinet was a good investment?
>
Per the calculations, over the long haul it is not a bad one as a consumer purchase. $10-50 per year in 2006 dollars (when I have to pay a high school student in my business $10 per hour) is a pretty good investment given that the same $50 buys dinner for two at a pretty mediocre restaurant, 10 grande lattes at Starbucks, or 3 T-shirts at JCrew. Would you rather have 10 grande lattes or a year's worth of playing a professional quality clarinet every year for 30 years?
I could be wrong about this, but I would guess that the only appreciating investiments in woodwinds would tend to be instruments owned by famous musicians (for instance, in the past year, clarinets owned by Artie Shaw and Gerry Mulligan have been offered for about $10,000 on the big Internet auctioneer, and another auction site -- a famous bricks and mortar house, not the big Internet auction site -- offers instruments owned by folks like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, etc., for 5 figure fees (you can Google for these). Obviously, such instruments are not going to be sold for performance use but as potential investments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ghuba
Date: 2006-04-19 13:11
Look at it this way .....
To go back to GBK's comments, later in life you will really value what you still own that was purchased with money you earned in high school because you will remember how hard you worked for the money and how great you felt being able to earn the money (and spend it as you wished).
I made a huge mistake in my mid 20s when I was in grad school of selling a Mark VI alto sax I had purchased for about $600 (as I recall) earned when I was about 16. Thirty years later, I wish I had that horn back, both because it was beautiful, but also for the memories of my high school and college years when I used it semi-professionally. I washed an awful lot of dishes to pay for it. Had I kept it for 30+ years like GBK, it would have cost me about $10-20 per year in 2006 dollars over what I would have made in investing the money (which of course, in my 20s I did not do!).
George
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Lelia Loban ★2017
Date: 2006-04-19 17:34
>>
I could be wrong about this, but I would guess that the only appreciating investiments in woodwinds would tend to be instruments owned by famous musicians (for instance, in the past year, clarinets owned by Artie Shaw and Gerry Mulligan have been offered for about $10,000 on the big Internet auctioneer, and another auction site -- a famous bricks and mortar house, not the big Internet auction site -- offers instruments owned by folks like Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, etc., for 5 figure fees (you can Google for these). Obviously, such instruments are not going to be sold for performance use but as potential investments.
>>
Yeah, but if the dealer hasn't got first-rate provenance, buyer beware, beware, beware. I'd love to have a good box of reeds for every time I've been offered "Artie Shaw's clarinet" or "Bill Clinton's saxophone" or "Charlie Parker's saxophone." Parker did play on a lot of instruments (he'd go broke and head for the pawn shop; later on, after he sobered up, somebody'd take pity and buy him a new ax; rewind that scene and play it back again...), but I think I've probably been offered more "Charlie Parker" saxes than he ever played in his lifetime!
Lelia
http://www.scoreexchange.com/profiles/Lelia_Loban
To hear the audio, click on the "Scorch Plug-In" box above the score.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
