 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chris C
Date: 2006-02-24 23:41
Hi all,
Firstly, thanks to everybody for the all the great posts I've read here over the past couple of days. Some very handy and interesting information.
Please brace yourselves for a small flurry of dumb newbie questions. I have been using the search function (with some great results) but sometimes new posters just wants to put their own angle on a question. So please be patient with me if I ask the same old chestnuts again. Here's the first question:
Tonguing.
I started clarinet last month, using books to learn from. So I am still getting the hang of what is important, and how much emphasis to put on each aspect of playing.
I discovered recently that I had overlooked tonguing completely. I guess I was doing some kind of throat thing to start and stop notes when needed. I've been told that this is more tiring in the long run. So I've started trying to tongue. Two problems appeared:
1) It sounds very noticeable. Think "hippo crashing through jungle" at the start of each note.
2) After a short time the clarinet feels like it's been played by a labrador. Off the scale on the drool meter.
I guess that the old eight letter answer is appropriate here (PRACTICE), but any tips would be appreciated. I was once told "Practice doesn't make perfect it makes permanent, so make sure that what you practice is correct".
Is it likely that my tonguing will automatically get quieter, less obtrusive and less labradoresque as I progress? Or are there particular things to look at?
And how important is it to master? Would it be wicked, wrong and foolish to
press on with playing my usual way (which sounds OK and seems comfortable) and just devote a bit of practice time specifically to tonguing each day? Or is it a case of "Stop right now! Henceforth thou shalt never play again without tonguing!" ??
I am strictly an "armchair musician" with no ambitions to play in bands or orchestras. And as I'll be 60 this year I'm keen to be able to bang out a few cheery tunes before the Reaper gets me. Full mastery of all the bells and whistles is not really required.
Any tips or comments gratefully received.
Cheers,
Chris
Currently residing at The Mundaring Home for the Musically Bewildered
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-25 00:15
You might have read some of the replies I posted about tongueing, and the way I assimilate it to a primed garden hose or air line at a garage for inflating your car tyres with - but just to briefly reitterate I'm saying the tongue is acting as a valve, releasing the air that's already under pressure to make the clarinet speak, and it's only the tongue that's moving (keep yer chops still!) - you shouldn't be forcing air out with every note, just starting and stopping the note or notes with your tongue.
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Author: Chris C
Date: 2006-02-25 01:19
Hi Chris P,
Thanks for such a prompt reply. I think that I’ve now got a fair idea of how tonguing is supposed to work to interrupt a steady stream of air (as in your hose analogies). I guess my questions are really about how necessary it is to always use that technique.
From searching here it seems that there are at least some people who think that the most important thing is to enjoy playing and that it isn’t always essential to follow all the 'official lines'. Others would disagree, so I’m wondering what the range of opinions and styles are.
I spent some of last year learning guitar and there were many schools of thought about that instrument. On the one hand were the 'classical' types who were often very rigid about the correct technique as per Segovia, or whoever. There were endless rules about the precise positioning of thumbs, fingers, arms, body posture etc and a lot of tut tutting about variations.
At the other extreme were the 'three power chord rockers' who didn’t give a hoot how they did it as long as it made the noise they wanted. In between were some genuinely excellent musicians whose techniques would horrify the purists.
Perhaps I should narrow my questions above to just two:
1) Would it be OK to practice tonguing as a separate exercise for a while? I.e. Would it cause problems to just keep playing the way I do and to introduce tonguing gradually, as I get better at it?
2) Is it essential to tongue at all? Are there players, or styles of playing, that prefer to use a ‘throat’ style, with whatever limitations and/or advantages that might have?
As I said, I have no intention of attempting to be an orchestral player and my only goal is to play for fun. However, when I make choices I like to know if I’m taking a lazy option or an alternative path, and what the pros and cons are. I don't usually go for 'lazy' but might still pick that path if the trade-offs seem reasonable!
Cheers,
Chris
Currently residing at The Mundaring Home for the Musically Bewildered
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2006-02-25 01:35
Here's my two cents - if you're beginning now anyway, why worry about staying with the old "throat" method? You won't be doing any fast articulated runs just yet. Just use the tonguing and forget about the other way.
Now about the tonguing - perhaps if you think "delicate" whenever you separate the notes and be sure you're using the tip instead of the flat of the tongue, you might find success sooner. Pillsbury dough-boy's tummy tickles with a slight push, but there's no need to find the backside of his spine while you're at it. Got the idea? So a delicate brush with your tip of your tongue will do the job.
Next?
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Author: Chris C
Date: 2006-02-25 04:52
<"Pillsbury dough-boy's tummy tickles with a slight push, but there's no need to find the backside of his spine while you're at it. Got the idea?">
Pillsbury dough-boy???
Sorry, but I've no idea what that's a reference to. :-)
Is it an American thing that we who live elsewhere may not be familiar with?
I guess you're saying that a gentle touch is required, and that's certainly what I'm attempting. I'm sure my touch can become more accurate and sound better with time.
I'm just interested to know how many players don't use tonguing, or don't feel it's essential. Currently I enjoy playing without tonguing and it doesn't seem to be an effort to do it that way. It also sounds fine to me. Whereas the tonguing feels very awkward and sounds awful.
I'm just trying to assess my options and decide how the short term pain versus long term gain equation works.
This quote (from another post here) intrigued me:
<"From my personal perspective tongueing is an affront to clarinet playing in general and to be avoided by all except symphonic and concert band players who are forced to use it.".>
As someone who plays only for fun I don't want to spend a lot of unnecessary time perfecting non-essential techniques. However, having mastered many other disciplines I'm not averse to putting in uncomfortable effort for long term gain - if, on balance, it seems worth it.
Currently, the throat thing feels natural and easy, whereas the tonguing feels contrived and awkward. I'll certainly keep trying the tonguing while I gather advice though. :-)
Cheers,
Chris
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2006-02-25 06:40
The problem with starting the note with your throat is that you'll be making a sound in your throat each time you start a note (my old sax teacher called it 'Hoo-ing') and this will be more noticeable when playing in the upper register, kinda sounding like a bass drum beat in the most extreme cases - sometimes in sax playing it can be used to start a note softly with no noticeable attack (if subtoning - making a soft, fat sound with no edge - a la Ben Webster).
Not sure where you are on the physiological side of things, but in this way the airstream is stopped by the epiglottis, and there will be a slight delay between the air from your larynx to the mouthpiece - and to achieve instant attack the air should be at the mouthpiece but the tongue is stopping the reed from vibrating. And releasing the tongue will have an instant effect.
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-02-25 11:59
Chris C --
In regard to your question about whether you can dispense with tonguing altogether, I have to say I am reminded of the warning that dentists here sometimes give their recalcitrant patients who balk at daily oral hygiene: "You only have to brush the teeth you want to keep."
So, in a like manner to you I would say, "You only have to tongue the notes you want to play."
Sure, you can refuse to tongue. Nobody is holding a gun to your head, and nobody will much care if you do it or not. But if you care about your own progress at all, eventually, YOU will care.
At sixty, unless there is some other circumstance in the offing that makes the Reaper's appearance more imminent, you should have years and years ahead of you when your ability to manage a musical instrument can take you places and open doors. And I'm NOT talking about joining the Philharmonic. If you expect even to get to the point where you can play with like-minded friends, you need to be able to articulate the notes approximately correctly. Believe me, nobody wants to play with an instrumentalist who just hoots the tones out.
So, slow things down a little here. Practice tonguing separately, but try to integrate it into all your playing. A week or two of struggle with this will yield you months and years of satisfaction. You might also consider having a few lessons, to establish the basics. (I suspect the slobbering problem, which you describe with great charm, may have something to do with a misconception of proper embouchure.)
Just for the record, I am a few years ahead of you, chronologically, and, hearing the beating of time's winged chariot at my own heels, decided two-and-a-half years ago to take up the oboe. I am currently on my second teacher, and third major reiteration of embouchure, but every time I force myself to abandon the old (incorrect) playing habit, I get to be a better and better player.
Step up to the challenge. You will gain in the balance.
Susan
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-02-25 12:28
> I am currently on my second teacher
What did you do unto the first one?
Joking aside, I found (still do) tongueing the biggest challenge, especially in the higher registers. Having a recorder background (where the tongue tip touches the roof of the mouth to cut off the air stream) I found the concept of touching the reed very awkward, resulting in the aforementioned Labrador Syndrome.
Being one of the very few people who miserably fail at cherry-stem knotting (I can't even do chewing gum bubbles) I experienced a slight farting sound at the beginning of every note. Took me a while to develop the motoric fine-tuning and I often find myself in need of doing staccato etudes. Guess it just takes time and care to train the tongue's muscular memory.
Don't force yourself into perfection at every aspect. But keep "tongueing" on your to-do list just as "fingering" and "sight reading" etc. When you're tired of eg sight-reading, relax with some tongue exercises and vice versa. And never ever lose sight of the fun in playing.
--
Ben
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2006-02-25 12:58
Hi,
I'm just a few years behind you chronologically and a couple in front in terms of playing the clarinet - I am, though, like you self taught and your post interested me as tonguing is something I've not mastered - I didn't realise that maybe I "should" be tonguing until about 18 months after I started to learn to play!
Incidentally I did have a teacher for a few lessons to begin with to give me an idea of the basics or so I thought - she never mentioned tonguing and didn't twig that I wasn't doing it !!! And I still don't do it - rightly or wrongly, foolishly or otherwise................
I also used to play the recorder so that hasn't helped but I play quite regularly now to small groups (between 20-30 people) of older folks purely for pleasure (theirs and mine !!) and they (and the staff too !!) think the sound I produce is very rich and that I play well ! You can fool some of the people .....................!!!
Recently I have started trying to tongue when I practice but I do wonder how much difference it really will make - I guess I'll only find that out by perseverance - the type of music I play is easy listening sing-a-long stuff which doesn't require the higher register much (thankfully).
Is there anyone else out there who simply doesn't tongue I wonder ????
Sue
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2006-02-25 13:07
> Is there anyone else out there who simply doesn't tongue I wonder ????
I doubt you're not tongueing. Maybe we should say "roof tongueing" ("Ta ta") and "reed tongueing" ("Thee thee") to tell the different styles apart.
As a recorderist I guess you're used to (and still practice) roof tongueing.
--
Ben
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-02-25 15:16
Author: tictactux (---.dclient.hispeed.ch)
Date: 2006-02-25 12:28
> I am currently on my second teacher
What did you do unto the first one?
Left her in the dust, I'm afraid.
Seriously, it was time to move on. Every teacher has something different to offer (or, so I've heard). My first teacher was enormously supportive of me, encouraged me to try everything, and never once made me feel stupid or inadequate. She even did a joint recital with me last summer (her idea, not mine.) I really blossomed under her guidance.
It was a whole lot of fun. But at this point, I need a more systematic approach to the finer technical aspects of playing, and someone who will challenge me to be more rigorous in my approach to music-making.
As I undergo this shift, I have found that, while I do love "discovery," I really HATE the hard process of learning. It is like pulling teeth (for my second dental analogy of the day! what's up with that?) for me to move out of my comfort zone and assimilate new ways of doing things into my routine. But, I want to be good. I want to get better. I want to be proud of myself, and amaze and astound my friends. So, on to the pedagogical dentist I go.
No pain, no gain?
Susan
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Author: SVClarinet09
Date: 2006-02-25 15:20
I know EXACTLY how you feel. I've been playing since I was 12 and I never learned how to tongue correctly. It wasn't until last year where I actually had to fix it. It took me a while to do it too. Just force yourself to play the music with your tongue and if you do this "jaw attack" then start all over again. It's what I did and it DEFINATELY helped my sound. I'm one of the best high school clarinet players in a good 30-50 mile radius.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2006-02-25 17:29
Like others here, I played the recorder for many (30+) years before taking up the clarinet, and found the different tonguing technique required by the clarinet to be difficult to learn. I'm not convinced my clarinet tonguing is very correct even now. I also play brass a bit, where the technique is different again.
My advice would be, try to play correctly all the time. Don't play "your" way for half an hour, then do 15 minutes of tonguing practice. Never deliberately practise playing wrongly!
As for the problems you are having with the explosive hippo sounds and labrador drooling, my guess is that you are taking the advice in books too literally. Have you read Jack Brymer's book? He makes two salient points. First, the description in instruction books, while it may be objectively accurate, doesn't really correspond to what it feels like. Second, different players tongue in different ways.
Having said that, I think it is fair to say that all competent players tongue somehow; they do not control the air with the throat.
Here is an exercise for you. Pick an easy note: middle C is as good as any. Play a series of long notes, three or four seconds each, mezzoforte, making the best sound you can. At first, don't worry about the start and end of the note, just the middle.
When you are happy with the sound of the middle of each note, then start listening critically to the end of the note. Does it end cleanly, or does it tail off? Is there an awkward click or quack at the end? Experiment with different ways of ending the note. Don't just slavishly follow the technique described in the instruction book. Find out what works for you.
When the notes are ending cleanly, start listening to the start of the notes. Does the nice sound start straight away, or is does it take time to get going? Are there any clicks or quacks at the start? Is the volume constant, or does the note start quiet and get louder, or loud and get quieter? Experiment with different techniques for starting the note, making sure that you are not wrecking the good work you did on the end of each note.
The point of this exercise is that you are not "practising tonguing". You are practising making a nice sound, and practising listening critically. Also, it reminds you that the end of each note is just as important as the beginning, and the way you tongue will affect both.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: kenb
Date: 2006-02-25 20:40
Chris C,
No matter how modest your ambitions, as a beginner with no other wind instrument experience, you'll be doing yourself a huge favour if you get the fundamentals sorted out with the guidance of a good teacher.
It doesn't matter what style of music you want to play, the most important aspect of wind technique is getting the blowing right -- good articulation depends on it, because your tongue needs to be able to function as a valve controlling a stream of air moving under pressure, just like a tap (sorry, faucet).
All the best!
K.
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Author: Chris C
Date: 2006-02-25 23:18
Hi all,
Thanks very much to you all for kindly taking the time to post such friendly, useful and encouraging replies.
Looks like I really should push through the maze of hippos, labradors, hosepipes, dentists and taps and get that tongue wagging in the approved manner.
When I first began playing it was Labrador all the way, but after a week or two I seemed to develop an appropriately dry style. I suppose it's largely an automatic intial reaction to having an alien object in the mouth.
But as soon as I tried tonguing, back came the Lab. So, with a bit of luck, I'll find that as the 'hippo tongue' slowly becomes a 'butterfly tongue' then the wetness problem will also die away again.
I shall start by trying David's exercise. I completely agree with the idea that slavishly trying to follow the descriptions in books can be quite misleading, and that experimenting with how and what works for the individual usually pays good dividends.
Often the terminology used in books means something to the experienced writer but nothing to a beginner! One that I often see is "keep the chin flat" or "keep the chin pointed" - neither of which enlighten me in the slightest!! To a layman "flat" and "pointed" are actually opposites and, alas, my chin seems to be resolutely chin shaped and neither flat nor pointed. But I'm sure that the writers have something useful in mind!
Thanks again for the tips and shared experiences.
Cheers,
Chris
Currently residing at The Mundaring Home for the Musically Bewildered
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Author: ohsuzan
Date: 2006-02-26 03:28
Hello again, Chris --
The "flat chin" thing has never quite worked for me, either. I have quite a pointy little chin (my paternal grandmother gave me that) that could only flatten out if someone lopped it off.
The thing that seems to get me the desired "flat chin" effect is to open my back teeth (here we are at the dental imagery again!) comfortably wide, and relax everything else (except for your rubber-band lips). It's kind of a mush-mouth feeling, but it does leave your tongue free to work all sorts of wiles on the mouthpiece.
Susan
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Author: sdr
Date: 2006-02-26 03:50
In this lengthy thread about tonguing there is much discussion of method but not one mention (that I could find) about the fact that one's ultimate objective is to make music through which you can express yourself. Tonguing, a means of articulation, is one of many tools for making YOUR music. It is worth learning just so you have one more tool in your toolbox. Think of it like an artists box of pencils, crayons, markers, pastels, etc. Why be limited to drawing with one fat crayon?
-sdr
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-02-27 06:52
"Would it be OK to practice tonguing as a separate exercise for a while?"
- Yup. Hum to yourself. But instead of 'mmm-mmm-mmm', do 'da-da-da'.
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Author: jacqui
Date: 2006-02-27 21:09
Hi Chris C:
Your comment on keeping your chin flat and/or pointed caught my attention. What works for me is to imagine i am shaving my chin, especially right below my lower lip. You end up sort of streching your chin down which "flattens" it while "pointing" it toward the floor more. Not sure if this is the right way to picture it as i too am a beginner, but when my instructor tells me to "point my chin more" i use this technique and he quits bugging me!! Lots of luck to you.
P.S. I'm a girl and don't really shave my chin, but you get the idea right?
Jacqui
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2006-03-06 19:38
Hi Chris,
Your post and the responses inspired me to try to master the technique once and for all and I think I'm getting there and I was just wondering how you are getting on with it ?
The advice which has stuck with me and is not to "practice" tonguing as an exercise as such - so I now don't allow myself to play unless I tongue and it's working - the sound isn't as good as yet as it was before but I'm hoping it soon will be and maybe, hopefully, it'll become even better still !
Good luck and keep at it !!
Sue
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