 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2006-02-13 20:38
How common is having to pull your middle joint. Is this a sign of a horn out of tune with itself or is it how the manufacturer intended it to be.
My Leblanc plays very sharp on low C, B, Bb, and A. Oddly low B is about 20 cents sharp and its 12th, F# is right on. Another player got the same results using my instrument and his mouthpiece.
Anyway, pulling the barrel caused even more problems but I have found that pulling the middle joint out about 1mm solves everything. Makes the horn just about perfect intonation-wise. It seems to bring up the lower notes without effecting the upper 12ths too much. That doesn't seem to make sense to me but that is what I observed.
So it seems like my instrument needs to be pulled in the center. The thing is...is that my instrument has an articulated g# so it doesn't seem right that the manufacturer would have intended the middle joint to be pulled out. The g# doesnt seem effected if I only pull out 1mm but the holes will not line up as nicely.
I'm a firm believer that you have to do anything it takes to play in tune but a part of me doesn't like doing anything the horn was not intended to do. It seems to me that a clarinet should just go together and ...boom...play in tune with itself. Am I wrong about this...was my instrument intended to be pulled in the center?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Brenda Siewert
Date: 2006-02-13 20:47
It's unusual to have to pull an instrument at the middle as you have described. However, if it works, just do it and don't worry too much about it. But, since it has the articulated G# key, as you mentioned, it's probably not the best solution. A longer tuning barrel perhaps or a new bell? I know you've said that when you pull the barrel that doesn't do as much good as pulling the middle, but it would allow the G# key to function at its true potential.
I take it this is an older Leblanc? Has it had a tune-up? New pads, corks, springs? Perhaps a technician should look at it and see what he/she thinks.
Sometimes an instrument is just not good with intonation. If you can't clear the problem with a reasonable amount of effort it might be time to search for a new one.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: GBK
Date: 2006-02-13 20:58
sinkdraiN wrote:
> I'm a firm believer that you have to do anything it takes
> to play in tune but a part of me doesn't like doing anything
> the horn was not intended to do. It seems to me that a
> clarinet should just go together and ...boom...play in tune with itself.
Maybe, in a perfect world ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
As we've said MANY times before:
Clarinets don't play in tune. Great musicians who play the clarinet play in tune.
Anyone who thinks there is any such thing as "set it and forget it" in terms of clarinet equipment and playing in tune has no idea what it means to play in tune.
No one "plays in tune" just like that. Anyone who is in tune all the time is working hard at it every second he or she is playing.
When originally selecting an instrument, intonation is priority number one.
If an instrument has serious tuning issues, not fixable by a competent tech, perhaps it is time to look for a different instrument...GBK
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2006-02-13 20:58
This instrument is what I purchased when I first started doubling. Now I am studying seriously with a very good teacher. Eventually, I will need to make a decision on a horn. My journey has taught me one major thing. When I go looking I don't care how great it sounds if the instrument is not in tune with itself.
Is a particular brand known for excellent even intonation in their current lineups? Or all they pretty level at this point
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-13 21:04
But...........
1) An instrument with a lousy sound or poor response is no good, even if it plays 'perfectly in tune' (whatever that is).
2) Many intonation problems CAN be fixed by a good technician, possibly saving an otherwise good instrument from the junk heap.
3) If your clarinet plays well permanently pulled out somewhere, slide a rubber O-ring of appropriate diameter and thickness over the tenon to act as a spacer -- this helps keep the desired spacing and reduces joint wobble somewhat.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2006-02-13 21:04
I've noticed that clarinets tuned to 442-444 often benefit from pulling out at the middle tenon joint. That experience make me wonder about newer instruments that are simply supplied with different length barrels to facilitate the change between 440 and 442. It might work great on these newer models, but it doesn't on a couple of older clarinets I have. Glad they're not one-piece bodies!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-02-13 22:17
Dear Sink,
I fret about the middle joint thing ALL the time. I had taken for granted that I should have some space there, but as time approaches for me to present a rendition of Weber's #2 it becomes clear that the only way to have a decent low F is to leave the joints together. This has forced me to rethink how to achieve pitch on the notes you describe. Without too much forcing, I am getting better at just using more dedicated upper lip support in those crucial moments. This also helps the keep clarion pitch well behaved and gives that octave even more bell like quality.
...........Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bob Phillips
Date: 2006-02-14 01:06
I have a Buffet with an articulated G#.
A few weeks ago, my teacher and I experimented with pulling the middle joint to get the low chaleumeau in tune. It worked differently than pulling at the barrel.
There was no problem with the articulated G# even when the joint was pulled 2-mm.
This instrument's intonation was helped greatly by a serious overhaul at Muncy Winds, which included some tone hole undercutting and a new barrel. I've still got some clinkers --like a flat long F.
Bob Phillips
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2006-02-15 10:25
What amuses me is the school band directors that have students pull out their bell in order to play in tune; well, works for one note anyway! Around here there also seems to be an epidemic of directors who tune their clarinet section to open G; I wonder who is training these people.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-02-15 10:51
Please explain, clarnibass! I was taught that as open G is easily played out-of-tune, it was a poor note to tune to. Instead, the instrument should be tuned with a stable, long fingering (e.g. long clarion C) and the player should tune the other notes with technique. I'd only tune at middle-joint if I had serious problems then getting those throat-notes up to pitch.
Post Edited (2006-02-15 10:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: buedsma
Date: 2006-02-15 11:11
A crack in the upper joint made my leblanc sound higher in the lower chalumeau !! So a small leak could cause the same problem .
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Burt
Date: 2006-02-15 14:00
I had the same problem (12ths being too wide) on my Buffet (~1956). It donesn't have an articulated G#. Several years ago, I had the register hole moved closer to the mouthpiece, and that solved it. It's expensive, since it involves getting a new register key. I'm not willing to spend the money on my "A" (Buffet ~1930), so I appreciate the difference switching form "A" to "Bb".
Yes, I also pull out at the center joint.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: saxlite
Date: 2006-02-15 15:02
Tom Ridenour recommends first tuning open G with the barrel, then tuning long clarion C by pulling the middle joint.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-15 15:43
I'd go one better: tune open G with the barrel; then tune low C by pulling the middle joint; then tune the long clarion C by pulling the bell if needed. Maximum tuning effect on any given note is obtained by changing the length of tubing just above and below that note's lowest open hole.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: charlie_star_uk
Date: 2006-02-15 16:32
yes i agree... at a recent lesson with thea king she suggested playing the c just above the break quietly alone, then listening to the piano... then playing thumb f...
i adjust the barrel and the middle joint on my R13 prestige....and maybe pull out the bell a tiny bit as well.... then you spread the adjustment down the whole instrument which seems to make sense.
charlie
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2006-02-15 18:11
i slur the interval D-G in the lower register, and do this 3 times- tuning at the barrel...
Then i do the octave D-D (low reg to upper reg, again 3 times) and tune at the middle joint to get 4th line D in tune...
Then i do the interval "high C" to Altissimo D, and check that the high D isn't too flat....
Following this method (plus working on tuning in practise time) i have greatly improved my intonation in the last few years of professional classical playing.
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-15 22:43
Open G is a good starter IMO. If you're good about knowing if you're lipping it, but I always take the opportunity to play all three G's just to check.
The same thing goes when the C is sounded (we use both in our ensemble).
On my Kohlert bass, I do generally need to add a couple of mm at the middle joint.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Liquorice
Date: 2006-02-15 22:45
"i slur the interval D-G in the lower register, and do this 3 times- tuning at the barrel...
Then i do the octave D-D (low reg to upper reg, again 3 times) and tune at the middle joint to get 4th line D in tune...
Then i do the interval "high C" to Altissimo D, and check that the high D isn't too flat....
Following this method (plus working on tuning in practise time) i have greatly improved my intonation in the last few years of professional classical playing."
Well done donald. I'm sure that really helps the tuning of YOUR instrument...
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-02-15 23:11
I like starting with open G. The process noted above which finishes with a clarion C by pulling the bell might look good on paper, but then where is the low chalumeau F? This is really only a current headache for me. Once I'm done with Weber #2 for awhile I'll look into the bell thing once again.
Still, wouldn't it be great if Boehm clarinets had the thumb trigger vent for low F and E as the Oehler horns? The Toscas are half way there !!!!!!
............Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2006-02-16 01:51
Paul,
The low chalumeau E and F are usually flat, as a tradeoff for having in-tune long clarion B and C --- the result of the compromise position of the register vent, which is sized and located more for the middle of the clarion register than the lower part. This tradeoff is even more marked on most bass clarinets -- for which many makers favor the intonation of the low chalumeau notes instead, while sacrificing the long clarion B and C (causing them to be painfully sharp). I guess the rationale behind this is that the bass clarinet spends more time in the lower register, and maybe that's true --- but to my ears (and I think most people's) some flatness in the lowest chalumeau notes is more tolerable than sharpness in the middle register. So....given that the standard Boehm clarinet is a design compromise, I would opt for getting the long clarion C in tune by pulling the bell, and tolerate a slightly flat low chalumeau F. Also, I believe it's a fact that a given amount of length change in the instrument will have twice the effect at the higher octave, so one gets twice the pitch change at the middle C from pulling out, than the corresponding pitch change of the low F.
Your mileage (and preferences) may vary............
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: donald
Date: 2006-02-16 09:03
my system tunes a note in the middle of the top joint, the middle of the lower joint, and then checks a note that suffers from flatness if i've over corrected.
when playing with my students, i tune with them using this system. It seems to work well for the students who play Buffet and Yamaha clarinets (but i haven't done a survey or anything). This tuning system was adapted from the system described by Leon Rusianof in the relevant chapter of his book.
maybe Liqourice could share his/her system with us? (along with his/her real name)
[ maybe that statement is a bit rude ... anonymity in screen name on this BBoard is perfectly fine, and while it's perfectly fair to call someone out on their ideas - or lack thereof - calling them out on their choice of not revealing their real name is not. Mark C. ]
donald
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Bassie
Date: 2006-02-16 09:25
I'd still only advise tuning open 'G' for very experienced players. I've seen it done with inexperienced ensembles and the results are disastrous - all the G's are tuned, sure, but every other note is off.
You can't tune a long fingering as much with technique - so do it by pulling joints. Now, if you pull the barrel the throat notes will get relatively flatter, because the proportional length change will be greater. If you can't pull them back with technique - perhaps because you have a 442Hz instrument and you've had to lengthen it by a couple of mm - then pull the middle joint a little and try again.
Paul - Is the trouble just with the low F? Or the E as well? Could it be a pad-height thing?
Post Edited (2006-02-16 09:31)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2006-02-16 11:40
Dear Bassie,
I was going to let the matter (and thread) die a respectful death but since I am being asked.........
I mention the Weber #2 for good reason. The low F (and E) figure quite prominently and loudly throughout this particular work and fiddling with the length of the horn in performance would be a bit impractical. I am therfore just whining, as usual. The German horns are even flatter at the bottom because they ARE tuned for the clarion register.......the taper of the bore in the bottom joint begins just before the bell as oppposed to the French taper starting closer to the middle of the joint.
Boehm seemed to be saying to clarinetists, "O.K., so your Cs and Bs are sharp, and your Fs and Es are flat...deal with it!"
STILL....since the idea and the probem and the solutions all exist simultaneously, it seems an easy fix to me for clarinet manufacturers if we as a group were willing to try. The Toscas are an effort to introduce this idea to the non-Teutons in the audience.....hooray for Buffet!
...........a curmudgeon,
....................Paul Aviles
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Shorthand
Date: 2006-02-16 15:20
I'll definitely change my bell "pull out" - I need an O ring for that - depending on the range of pieces on a concert. If there aren't many low clarion C's and B's, I'll bring the bell back in to favor the E's (F's are fine either way, actually).
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Fred
Date: 2006-02-16 15:43
The bottom line for me is that I have to know my clarinet and know what it takes to get in tune. With my R13's, I can play a Concert Bb, tune by pulling out at the barrel, and be in tune . . . because I KNOW THE INSTRUMENT. I have other clarinets that I must adjust open G at the barrel and tune clarion C at the middle joint.
I think one reason there is so much discussion here about the "right" way is that the needs of different clarinets are not being fully considered.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
