 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Chalumeau Joe
Date: 2005-11-27 19:01
I was putting my clarinet away after a session and one of the barrel rings just fell off (first time in 25+ years of playing that this has ever happened to me). I tried to put it back, but it simply spins around and won't stay on.
Is it sufficient to shim the ring with a stip of paper, or should I get it "professionally" repaired?
Thanks,
JC
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-27 19:48
Some people will say that a good treatment of a GOOD bore oil will correct it.
Some technicians would just use paper as you suggest.
Some would heat the ring, apply stick shellac, and replace the ring to the barrel, while the shellac is still hot. Any excess can be easily pushed off when it cools to non-sticky.
A very few technicians would have expensive ring-shrinking equipment, and use this.
Any of these have merit. The idea is that the ring stops the timber splitting when the tenon is inserted, especially if inserted slightly crooked. Or if the clarinet suffers an accident.
However paper is likely to be too thick to shim right around. If paper is used only in one area of the circumference, then theoretically there are remaining areas of the timber which are still not supported. Whether this greatly important in practice could be argued.
Post Edited (2005-11-27 23:59)
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Author: ghuba
Date: 2005-11-28 00:04
Gordon, Having had this happen to the barrels on two different clarinets in the last few weeks (weather change time here in the Southeast USA), is my first option to put some bore oil on the barrels and see if the tenon rings on them fit more tightly in a few days, or is it to go straight to the shop? George
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-11-28 01:42
Sounds like the wood has shrunk due to low humidity. If it were me I'd put the ring back on, put the clarinet in its case and introduce humidity. Some people might put the clarinet pieces in a locking plastic bag with a wet sponge. I'd probably oil the bore after restoring the proper moisture content in the wood. Different approaches depend on specifics which we don't have.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Richie Hawley
Date: 2005-11-28 05:42
You should "shim" it with a thin strip of paper from the yellow pages around the exposed wood. (the newly exposed wood under the rings) Be sure to put the barrel ring back on in the same direction (note which side is beveled and be ready to push down on it hard) and trim the excess with a very sharp and freshrazor blade-- a very easy and common fix. This will cause no damage or harm when your barrel expands a hair with more humidity. Bore oil is not necessary.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-11-28 07:24
Some folks use cheesecloth instead of paper. Pretty much just a matter of choice and/or what materials are most readily available to you. I have ring shrinking equipment... I've used it once in the past year and a half. That was to [ho-hum] snug up a lower bell ring 
Gordon's suggestions are quicker, less cumbersome and last as long as what a ring-shrinker device will do.
- ron b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-28 10:34
I imagine that goldbeaters skin (more or less natural sausage skin of the uncooked type) would be better for most situations than paper, simply because it is a lot tougher, and probably quite a bit thinner. However I've never tried it, nor paper. I have found nothing wrong with shellac.
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Author: LarryBocaner ★2017
Date: 2005-11-28 13:41
Historically clarinetists have used the little slip of paper that used to be enclosed in Vandoren reed boxes that read "In order to prevent imitations...." in 5 different languages. Using the Yellow Pages as a contemporary solution seems like a good idea, but it lacks that sentimental cachet. I actually found one of the Vandoren papers in my reed drawer just now--I wonder if it's eBay saleable!
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-11-28 13:43
Why not use something elastic, like rubber cement?
When the barrel expands (in damp weather) the rubber should yield.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-28 14:03
I had a Peter Eaton International where all the rings were stuck on with either Evo-Stik or Copydex (some rubbery type glue that wasn't good for the job), and came off with a twist. It came in for a service and the fact owner specified the barrel rings were loose and need sticking, but the whole lot were loose.
I just cleaned and degreased the rings and the recesses in the wood and put them all back on with some superglue - run the superglue evenly around the wood and let it go off for a few seconds, then push the rings back. They're still tightly in place now and that was three years ago.
But I've seen loads of barrels where the rings have been put on the wrong way round.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-11-28 14:06
LarryBocaner wrote:
> Historically clarinetists have used the little slip of paper
> that used to be enclosed in Vandoren reed boxes that read "In
> order to prevent imitations...."
Sailors who need to shim instruments (generally non-musical but precision gear nonetheless) have historically used chart paper - old, unusable charts get recycled as gaskets, shims, etc. The paper that nautical charts are made out of is thin and strong. I'll bet they'd serve the purpose well for clarinets
Mark C. (USN 1972-1980)
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2005-11-28 14:47
Yamaha Pad Cleaning paper is thin and strong. The length is just right to wrap around a clarinet tenon. I slice off a piece the width of the ring ( in some cases, a double width and fold it carefully). Then, I coat the exposed tenon with a thin layer of Micro Cork Cement and wrap the paper onto the tenon. Next, I coat the paper layer with a thin coat of the cork cement. Finally, I carefully press the ring onto the tenon, being careful to observe the tapered end side. After a few hours of drying, I use a razor blade to clean up any exposed paper. This makes a very strong and permanent joint; I have never had trouble with any fixed this way. Quick, cheap and permanent.
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2005-11-28 15:22
Moening used shims of a now defunct Philadelphia newspaper...the Bulletin.
DO NOT use Gorilla glue....it leaves a black residue on silver.
Quick fix....dental floss.
Former creator of CUSTOM CLARINET TUNING BARRELS by DR. ALLAN SEGAL
-Where the Sound Matters Most(tm)-
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-11-28 16:15
i had the same problem years ago in college. my teacher pulled out a ziplock bag, stretched it over the tenon, then snugged the ring over the plastic. He then trimmed up the plastic with an exacto blade. quick, inexpensive, and no problems since.
just one more option to add to the pile.
~~JK
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-28 20:42
I squirm a little at the use of contact adhesive.
Should a technician need to remove a ring at a later date, the processes he expects to work are a little strategic tapping (to break tight or brittle bonds), or if that fails, use a little heat to break a bond such as epoxy or superglue.
Heating is out of the question with plastic.
Heating on a timber socket without the risk of damaging the timber needs special equipment that probably many technicians do not have.
A good contact glue loses SOME viscosity when heated, but needs a lot of heat to release well, so it may well present a problem.
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Author: tictactux ★2017
Date: 2005-11-28 21:07
> I squirm a little at the use of contact adhesive.
What do the experts have to say about PVA? I know it sounds amateurish but I more or less exclusively use PVA for woodwork, with very good results.
--
Ben
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-28 23:17
1. PVA sets with properties not dissimilar to those I described for contact adhesive.
2. It adheres poorly to metal, where it cannot absorb into the surface. It also adheres poorly to oil-impregnated timber.
3. In a situation like this, where it has almost no exposure to air, it would take a very long time to set, because it relies on evaporation to set.
But in this situation the glue is used predominantly as a filler rather than as an adhesive. If the ring SEEMS securely attached, but the attachment is only in a few spots, with gaps under it everywhere else, then it does not perform its function of supporting the timber against stresses that may split it.
4. Because it relies on evaporation to set, PVA is a poor filler. As it evaporates it decreases substantially in volume, which is not what you want for a filler.
IMHO
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-28 23:34
I've seen several people mentioning how they'd cut a strip of paper to the right dimentions to make a shim.
No need! Just cover the end of the socket with a sheet of paper and push the ring down part way - between 2/3 to 3/4 the way down, trim all the excess paper off and the bit inside that now resembles a drum head and push the ring home. You'll get a seemless and an equal amount of paper between the wood and the ring, so there's equal pressure all way round.
If you use a strip of paper it will probably slide down with the ring leaving a gap at one point around the circumference, and also crease or bunch up at the bottom so the ring won't go all the way down.
Yamaha mention in their repair manual that the lot should be cleaned with solvent, then adhesive applied to the wood and cloth used instead of paper and the ring replaced, trimming the excess cloth - but cloth is probably too thick and will narrow the end of the socket once the ring has been fitted.
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Author: pewd
Date: 2005-11-29 05:50
I do what Chris P describes, except using cloth instead of paper.
Old worn out cotton handkerchiefs or tshirts - worn out so that the material is fairly thin.
- Paul Dods
Dallas, Texas
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-11-29 21:59
Use bore oil, by slapping a goodly amount on, then leave it for a day or longer until it has soaked in and dried out. By this time the ring will be tightly fitted. Usually it'll work, without use of glue, paper or anything else.
Nick
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Author: cujo
Date: 2005-11-30 00:25
I think using shims or shrinking the ring would eventually crack the wood.
The wood would eventually expand next season when humidity goes up and all the extra pressure would help start a crack.
Ok maybe not directly start a crack but would allow conditions for one to start.
Clarinet should be oiled well enough throughout the year so that it does not significantly expand and contract.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-30 00:35
Plastic clarinets (and other wind instruments made of plastic) expand and contract with temperature more dramatically than wooden ones, though humidity has little effect on them.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-11-30 05:44
Cujo wrote:
"I think using shims or shrinking the ring would eventually crack the wood.
The wood would eventually expand next season when humidity goes up and all the extra pressure would help start a crack. ..."
I don't think so. The conditions described put the timber into compression. A crack starts only when the timber is under TENSION.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-30 11:33
Cracks in barrels (and other sockets) only happen when the rings are loose.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2005-11-30 20:06
i guess that makes sense. I didnt think the extra tension would be good
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-11-30 22:23
It's the pressure from the rings keeping things tight, especially sockets where the compression from the rings is needed.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2005-12-01 04:19
In addition to all of Gordon's comments about pva glue, white PVA is NOT water resistant.
Gorilla glue (urethane) expands as a foam as it cures, and will seep out of joints. This seepage can only be trimed with a knife, there is no solvent for the cured glue.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-12-01 11:22
I believe that Gordon is right to an extent. Relieving tension probably leads to a greater tendency for wood to crack (I will use these terms although force vectors are probably a better descriptive term) than compression but wood is a very funny material that defies description in a homogeneous material physical sense - because it is not homogeneous. Wood, even grenadilla, has a certain elasticity which has different properties in "tension" versus "compression" force vectors. In either case - tension or compression - the "strain" must be relieved within the wood (the wood will either be under potential force energy or possibly deform) - it can however be kept under compression force and not relieve "strain" but the see-saw application of force vectors often is translated into relieving these forces by the wood cracking in the weakest portion of the wood - not necessarily directly at the point of force application. Properly fitted, tight rings are the best defense for the wood not relieving tension by cracking but there are hazards of any potential force energy stored in wood by compression too.
L. Omar Henderson
Post Edited (2005-12-01 11:23)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-12-01 15:59
I seem to think that I understand some of it, Doc. I guess by strain you mean "deformation" , i.e. physical movement. I am reminded of watching compression tests of large concrete billets during my college days. Nothing seemed to happen for a long time as the load was being increased until there was a large explosion. Regarding Gordon's paper thing I think that if and when the wood expands due to humidity the paper....being weaker than the wood by a huge factor....will simply be compressed and even squeezed out if necessary to resolve the stress.
Bob Draznik
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