 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-10-26 18:14
I've been playing on a Bay MO-M that I picked up for $75 in 1993 since then. I've been playing actively for about 6 years of that time, including the last 4.
However, I'm finding it harder and harder to get a polite Bass Clarinet sound out of my setup. I get lots of projection, though, and still plenty of control at low volumes. I'd very much not like to loose those qualities, but I would like to be able to produce a less reedy tone.
My instrument is a Kohlert which used to be Dave S' personal horn, and which he restored, a Rovner ligature, and Vandoren or Rico Grand Concert 3-strength reeds. I've tried the Zonda's and I like the cane, but the flat facing drives me nuts. Obviously, I'm having major frustrations with Vandoren's QC at the moment as well.
In truth, there may be some contributing factors, including that I'm having trouble finding as much time to practice than when I took the instrument back up 4 years ago. However, I think something more is going on and that the mouthpiece may just be worn out - the reed doesn't seem to sit quite the same when I line up the tip as it used to.
As a result, I think its time to try a new mouthpiece, but I have no idea in which direction to go (or where I'm starting from for that matter). I don't think I need a radical change, but something just a tad more contained. I'd like to keep the price at or under that $165 point which is where the good but not over-priced Bass Mouthpieces seem to reside.
I'm also not quite sure what the different mouthpiece dimensions do. I assume a MO tip is about where I want to stay - otherwise I'll sacrifice volume, which I don't want to, but I'm not quite sure what a longer or shorter facing will do, or how long a Bay MO-M's facing is.
TIA
--Stephen
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-26 19:47
Hi Stephen - There are many bass cl players with more mp experience than mine, hopefully they will respond. I looked at the bass mp-comparison chart in a Weiner brochure, and it appears to me that many of the [several cl]Bays are "far right" indicating [to me] a [general] wide tip opening and perhaps a quite "long" lay-curve, which, IMHO, would project strongly. I have had fair success with Selmer C* and [similar?] Bundy 3 or 4 's, but my best by far are 2 [refaced by Dave S] Pomarico GG's [older] prob. a bit more open tip than P's [present] #3. There are a number of fine bass mp refacers, Walter Grabner among them, quite E-M available via the NewBassClarinet, Yahoogroups site. I find my Poms give me a fine, mellow soft sound, and are capable of considerable volume, when needed in my band playing. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-26 20:00
Howdy Stephen,
You might try a Walter Grabner or Clark Fobes mouthpiece -- they both make superb bass clarinet mouthpieces.
Glad to see my old Kohlert keeps cranking along! I'm still playing on one myself (with homemade removable low-C extension for extra ugliness.)
I've played many crystal Pomaricos as favored by Don, but for me I've never had one play the way I like 'out of the box' -- I've refaced every one of them (not just on bass clarinet, but also on Bb and Eb clarinets and even alto sax).
DS
Centreville, VA
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-26 20:22
In my view of the bass clarinet world, a "wide open tip" does not equate to greater projection.
Well known bass clarinet players, in professional orchestras, tend to play on a mouthpiece with the tip opening in the 1.70 to 1.85 range. These are people who often need to "cut through" a 100 piece orchestra (Chicago Symphony, Detroit Symphony, Oregon Symphony, as examples). My personal mouthpiece has a 1.80 tip.
The 2.00 tip opening range gives a big sound in the lowest register but often has a limiting effect on control in the clarion and altissimo ranges.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
World Class Bass clarinet mouthpieces
Restored R13 Clarinets
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-26 20:47
Walter's right on the money -- years ago I was playing on a relatively open Bay MO-M, thinking that it gave me a "big" sound -- but after a while I came to dislike the 'hard' quality of the sound and my inability to play pp dynamics (and some difficulty in playing up high). I've found that a tip opening in the range Walter recommends, along with a relatively long facing curve and reeds in the #4 strength range, will give you all the projection you need, with dynamic control and a nice sound.
I also once tried a friend's Pomarico "Henri Bok" model crystal mouthpiece (very open) and I couldn't stand it -- might have been OK for jazz work using a very soft reed, but for concert band or orchestral work it would have been completely out of its element.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-10-26 21:25
One challenge is that the mouthpiece "receptacle" on the neck of this instrument is a little small and the cork usually needs to be shaven. I haven't taken a caliper to it, but that's a pretty straightforward task. If I'm asking to evaluate mouthpieces, though, that definitely adds a wrinkle. Should I just include that measurement in any requests I make?
Walter,
Thanks for answering. It adds a great deal of value when the manufacturer and designer himself responds. However, after looking at your website again, I still can't actually figure out the difference between your CX_BB_PERS and CX_BZ.
As a hobbiest, I definitely am interested in being able to drop the time I spend on reed prep right now, but how do the sounds of those two moutpieces differ?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-27 00:37
Stephen,
I'd recommend that you do what I've been doing to my Kohlerts recently and should have done to yours (in hindsight): Enlarge the neck socket diameter using a Dremel tool with a sanding drum --- you can do it yourself, just go round and round, making sure to take an equal amount off all areas, and periodically measure the inside diameter with an inside micrometer or vernier calipers. I don't know a good number off the top of my head, but at any rate you can make the inner diameter of the mouthpiece socket a more typical "modern" dimension, so all current mouthpieces will fit without modifications.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-27 00:42
Correction to my first sentence above: I meant "mouthpiece socket" rather than "neck socket" (but you knew what I meant.........).
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-10-27 07:34
Have you heard recordings of yourself playing in orchestra etc.? I say this because a key catch with the bass is how it sounds very different to the audience compared to how it sounds to the player. A reedy tone often collects a warm glow on the way over to the listener.
In the unlikely event that you would want to get a mouthpiece from England, then try Pillinger mouthpieces. I play on one of these, with a 1.75mm opening, and although I have tried other mouthpieces, this is the one I tend to return to pretty quickly (always in time for a concert).
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Author: Ed
Date: 2005-10-28 00:21
The best bass mouthpieces that I have encountered are the Fobes and Grabner. They are capable of producing sweet controlled tones, yet can projest through the orchestra or band with ease.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-28 06:04
I personally use a Selmer E (tried F but this was for me as a starter too much).
The E has as rather wide tip (2.00) and indeed a great low sound (as David S. says), but I don't agree on his argument about the problems with the high playing, nor with the ppp.
With a VD Java #3 reed (yes Tenor sax stuff) it plays as soft as a bass should be able to play :-)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-29 05:50
Please e-mail me off list for specific information about my products. It's not fair to take up the BB bandwidth for what amounts to free advertising (as much as I would like to!)
Belgian - have you actually measured the tip of your mouthpiece. Although I do like and USE Selmer bass clarinet mouthpieces, the ones I get are not even close to spec. They can be, and usually are, way off of the published spec.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Doing an Eb clarinet overhaul - it's almost 1:00 AM!
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-29 07:55
Shorthand, if you are interested I'm going to do a non-scientific test of recording myself on several mouthpiece, both on clarinet and bass clarinet. I'm not sure if that would help you much, but if you are interested leave your email here or email me to clarnibass@yahoo.com
Anyone else that interested let me know.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-10-29 09:45
Hello Walter,
To be honest I 'found' my mp by testing several (± 10) at the shop (Selmer and VD) the Selmer E came out as best feasible. Though it seems the F is favoured by many pro players, but since I had just started playing the bass at that time (about a year ago) I couldn't handle it.
My teacher uses a Nagamatsu, which is quite nice too, but I didn't want to spent the € 250 they charge for this. The selmer sells for ± € 125.
So for the Selmer I don't have real data, I just refer to the website. I'm afraid I can't do any accurate measurements either.
It still fascinates me that there is on the BB so much talk about 'refacing', 'adapting', ... because I'm not aware of this practise in Belgium. Most players I know play a mouthpiece out of the box. The 'smarter ones :-)' test' several in the shop before buying. I had several rounds of testing for my new Bb mouthpiece (a VD B40)
I know some pro's and they seem to follow 'the smarter logic', but ofcourse there might be plenty other.
Maybe someone knows a 'European' or even Belgian refacer, so I can start digging into this direction.
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Author: Tom Puwalski
Date: 2005-10-29 12:53
I"t still fascinates me that there is on the BB so much talk about 'refacing', 'adapting', ... because I'm not aware of this practise in Belgium. Most players I know play a mouthpiece out of the box. The 'smarter ones :-)' test' several in the shop before buying. I had several rounds of testing for my new Bb mouthpiece (a VD B40)"
I think this happens in America becuase everyone thinks they can "buy" game, and I believe whole heartedly that 96% of all american players don't have a clue as to what to do with a reed. As someone who has refaced mouthpieces for clients I'm constantly being asked stupid question: "Can I win an audition with this mouthpiece", " Can you put more of the Harold Wright sound in there?" Here's the kicker, I heard a very well known mouthpiece maker ask a very well respected clarinet repair technician who would be working on reboring his clarinet, " I want it to sound like Marcellus's clarinet, with just a tinge of Wright"
OK maybe it's just me, but all this stuff getting really crazy. There are no special facings, no super secret rubber formulations, no special bores, nothing out there exists that will turn a non player into a god. Except maybe a well balanced reed on mouthpiece with a good facing, and a hell of alot of practice.
Sorry for the rant. Tom Puwalski
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-10-29 15:52
Claribass, I don't think it will be of much help, but thank you for the offer. While the Kohlerts Dave & I have is similar in many respects to an old Selmer Model 33, it has some unique challenges as well. In addition, my primary ensemble has pretty extensive recordings, and I'll be borrowing a CD from one of my section mates (I've already listened through the recordings posted online: http://www.asband.org/sounds/ ) and I'm inclined to agree with graham and say that the reedy sound does gain warmth in a concert setting.
However, there is a more "polite" and pure sound that I could always get with the Bay on a Selmer (or a C* on a Selmer or Yamaha), but has been a real reed and embouchure challenge with the Bay on the Kohlert. Part of it is undoubtedly that I'm not playing 4-5 days a week for 2 hours a day like I used to, but part of it is also the setup.
I respect Tom's comments (some people do obsess about setup more than a little too much), but I think I'm making a reasonable adjustment here with a clear and attainable goal in mind.
The thread has be absloutely as informative as I had hoped, rants and all - Thanks.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2005-11-11 07:27
I know what you mean about 'reedy' vs. 'polite' Bass sound. I too prefer a 'polite' sound, but sometimes find trouble making it carry. I play a Vandoren B40, which I find rounds of the edges of the sound and puts some richness into the middle where I want it. Also retains access to the high notes. Reeds can be a trouble, though: Vandoren I find harsh, but with good volume. Rico Royal is fine in a 3 but blows out in about an hour; 3.5 lasts better but I find my brains dribbling out of my ears after a while. And they go wrinkly. I've recently tried Grand Concert (3) and am beginning to like them quite a lot. Also, a box of LaVoz MH I've just bought are beginning to sound very appealing. Marca's worth a look.
I think the way people play the intrument (or their perception of their ability and their sound?) changes over the years. I went back to my Bb the other day and discovered with a shock that the 5RV mouthpiece I played years ago was suddenly sounding far, far better than my current equipment. Crazy.
Now, I read a lot of posts about people trying twenty instances of a single design of mouthpiece to find a 'good' one. <cough> 'B45' </cough>. In my book, that's telling me you're looking at the wrong basic mouthpiece design for you and you're actually trying to find one that's out-of-spec. I know I can't play B45 or B40 on soprano clarinet, and I'm happy with that. Think 'out of the box', people - try a few different designs. Everyone's different; different players need different things. Talk of 'lay' and 'chamber' can only point you in the right direction. If you find one you really like, maybe then try two or perhaps three to make sure one of them's not slightly 'off' compared to the other. But frankly I wouldn't spend too much time on it.
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Author: BelgianClarinet
Date: 2005-11-11 08:22
I don't think we are looking for the 'out of spec' when testing some of the same.
Believe me I've tried several of several models (OK, only VD), and they ALL are different.
Also I trust people, teachers :-), who can make a sort of 'pre-selection' amongst the models. Some models simply are not ok for the 'clarinet sound' that is preferred in our music environment (type of music, type of orchestra, and yes also - local clarinet 'beliefs')
Most of these pro's have been trying, testing experimenting with a lot more of models, and at the end can help you limit your search effort.
Standard here is B40 (on Soprano) . I didn't belief it - I don't always trust in full ;-), but ...
I'm now playing a B40 (on Soprano) to my very very great satisfaction.
On Bass it's Selmer (E) for me.
Post Edited (2005-11-11 08:23)
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-11-11 13:02
Ah! Grand Concert 3s... I've just discovered those, and wondering why I hadn't tried them before. Very smooth indeed. Also, if a little reedier, Alexander Superial Classique seem promising, but I have yet to give them a good work out.
BelgianClarinet: a London maker is Ed Pillinger, based in North London. Jump on the Eurostar to London Waterloo, and take our (slow) metro line (Jubillee Line) to Stanmore, and you can visit him there. Take your instrument and loads of reeds and see if you like any of his stuff (you will need to arrange an appointment).
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