 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-31 17:14
A few days ago, I was handed a Leblanc paperclip contrabass to play. I have a few questions for any contra players.
First, I play bass clarinet (Buffet 1193-2) and get a sound out of it that is, in my opinion, as sweet as that coming from any soprano clarinet. I would like to get the best possible sound from the contra as well. (I realize that it won't be quite as nice since there are no undercut toneholes, etc., but I'd like to get as close as possible.) I played with it a little over the weekend and ultimately was able to get it to play everything from a LOOOW Eb to the C above the staff (and maybe a bit beyond). But the sound is relatively weak and less than beautiful. It seems to be particularly weak in the vicinity of the break (both sides).
My questions:
(1) Should the reed be wide enough to reach the outside edges of the rails? The reeds that the previous player were using only reach the inside of the rails. I'm guessing that they are bari sax reeds or something other than Bb contra reeds.
(2) The mouthpiece, as you would guess, is the one that originally came with the instrument. The reeds in the case were all Vandoren 2 1/2s. I plan on buying a few different strength reeds to try out. I'm guessing that I need something a little softer? Am I right?
(3) There is always talk on this board about the various soprano mouthpieces and occasionally about bass mouthpieces. What about contra mouthpieces? Are there other, better ones? Are they going to cost a fortune? (I think I could use a better ligature too. The one with the instrument is brass-colored and just a bit too small. I'm guessing it's a bari sax ligature.)
(4) The peg for the instrument would not reach the floor unless I was knealing to play. What do others do? Set the peg on the corner of the chair? Use some sort of stand to set the peg on? Is there a longer peg available? If I made one myself, would it be too wobbly because of its length?
(5) After playing just a few minutes, I felt as though I had been hyperventilating. Should it take that much breath to get the thing to play? (On my bass clarinet, I have no such problems. My lung capacity allows me to play extremely long sustained notes as long as they aren't fortissimo.)
Any other tips?
Other than getting it to play well, my only concern is that I'm the only one in the ensemble with a low-C bass clarinet and I'm afraid there'll be a solo that requires playing below Eb on a piece that also requires contra. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
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Author: Paul Aviles
Date: 2005-10-31 18:04
I have played on contralto and my suggestions are as follows:
By all means, get a reed to fit the mouthpiece! Try Fibracell reeds (new ones from WWBW are numbered strengths), they get a reel reedy sound and are super consistant. I love 'em for low horns - the soprano ones aren't even worth trying. Also, they seem a bit weaker than the advertised strength so keep that in mind.
Ditch the chair for some sort of adjustable stool. Of course if someone out there has a suggestion specifically addressing the "paper clip" to get it higher, do that.
............Paul Aviles
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-31 18:19
"What do others do? Set the peg on the corner of the chair? Use some sort of stand to set the peg on? Is there a longer peg available? If I made one myself, would it be too wobbly because of its length?"
In the bass clarinet convention I saw many people play the bass with a long peg. It's the first time I see that, since in my country all bass clarinet players either sit or use a neck strap. I'm in the process of making a long peg for my bass, and I know it is possible and should not be wobbly since I saw many do it. But, I'm not sure if it possible with a contra, maybe it is too heavy. I saw people play a paperclip sitting, is that a problem?
"I'm afraid there'll be a solo that requires playing below Eb on a piece that also requires contra."
I wouldn't worry about that. I don't think we have a single contrabass clarinet in my country and the orchestras manage to play fine 
Good luck.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-31 18:54
My suggestions probably differ from most:
1) Get a Clark Fobes mouthpiece, or have someone reface a stock Selmer C* or Bundy 3.
2) As long as the reeds are covering the window (no air leaks) they don't have to extend the full width of the rails (which are often wider than necessary on many mouthpieces, anyway). Bari sax reeds should generally work just fine.
3) I would suggest, with the improved mouthpiece, considerably HARDER, not softer reeds. A properly-faced mouthpiece for contra will have a longer curve than most stock pieces and thus require (and respond well with) harder reeds.
4) Can't help you with the peg problem. I'm relatively short and have re-angled my neck (a la Charles Bay) so I have to sit on cushions when I play contra, using the tiny standard peg on the bottom of the bell.
5) Can't help you with the air supply problem --- a good mouthpiece should solve that.
6) I must recommend AGAINST synthetic reeds except when necessary for doubling or playing outdoors. Cane really does sound better (trust, yet verify -- as former President Reagan said).
![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-31 19:01
Clarnibass--
Yes, I do play sitting, but even when sitting, the peg isn't long enough to reach the floor. I plan to use a peg and a neckstrap. (I need to buy a two-hooked neckstrap.) By the way, here in the U.S., I have never seen a contrabass player standing if they didn't have to.
Yes, contra parts are rare in orchestras, although the Indianapolis Symphony Orchestra borrowed this particular instrument earlier this year to play a modern orchestral work. I play in a wind ensemble and many wind ensemble/wind band arrangements have parts for contrabass and contraalto. They aren't always critical parts, but occasionally they are important.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-10-31 19:10
Don, my apologies -- I read your post too fast -- my response applies to the contra-ALTO, not the contrabass.
.......never mind.............
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-10-31 19:39
Don, I forgot to say that to make the long peg, my grandfather will measur the current peg exactly and they will do it in their kibutz's auto shp (the place where they fix the tractors and cars).
I think you can go to one of those people that make metal things (I don't know the English word for that sorry) and have them make you a peg. Remember it needs to be very strong. I would even try to find someone with a long peg and ask them what is it made of or where they got it. I know on bass clarinet in the USA Dennis Smylie (spelling?) uses a very long peg, and also Luis Afonso from Brazil. Maybe you can try contacting them.
Good luck.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-10-31 20:29
Don, I assume the Leblanc paperclip contra you are playing is the Bb model to low D? As far as I know, only the straight model goes down to low Eb. Bb paperclips either goes down to D or C.
Although it might be difficult to imagine, contras are capable of being beautiful in sound, provided your mouthpiece/reed combination is workable, the instrument is adjusted, and the player is up to speed. Might the instrument have some leaks that caused you to think it’s weak and less than beautiful?
To answer your questions.
Mouthpiece/Ligature/Reed
On my paperclips, I use stock G. Leblanc mouthpieces, Rovner 4RL ligatures (designed for Leblanc contras), and both Vandoren and Legere reeds. This combination works well for me on both horns, giving resonant and dark sound. I also have a Clark Fobes Debut contra mouthpiece for backup, this mouthpiece will also fit both size of Leblanc contras. Great mouthpiece, but in my opinion it does not give as good overall sound as the stock Leblancs. Recently Walter Grabner began offering his version of the mouthpiece for Leblanc contras, but at over $200 a piece. Runyun also makes one, check out its website. And lastly, Leblanc-owned Woodwind company also makes one. What is your mouthpiece? You said it came with the instrument originally, so it’s probably an older G. Leblanc stock mouthpiece. Out of the 3 brands that I have experience with (G. Leblanc, Woodwind, Fobes), I find the G. Leblanc plays best. Can’t commend on the Runyun or Grabner.
The Rovner 4RL is the ligature to get for the Leblanc contra mouthpieces, I presume it will also fit other makes of mouthpieces mentioned above. Do not get the 4RS, as it’s one size smaller and designed for the Selmer/Bundy contra alto clarinets. I find Rovner easy to use and holds the reed securely in place.
When the Vandoren reeds work properly, they are my first choice, however I have found cane reeds always warp at the worst times, so the Legere synthetic reeds come in really handy at times when your focus is on performance. And personally I like their tone just as well as the cane reeds and I really appreciate their durability and user-friendliness. Legere is a Canadian company and you can order directly from its website.
Yes, the reed should be wide enough to cover the window at least, and yes you do need proper Bb paperclip contra reeds for your mouthpiece. As far as I know, currently only Vandoren and Legere make proper sizes for your horn. Bari sax reeds won’t work, nor will Rico “contrabass” reeds, which are really reeds for Selmer/Bundy contra altos. Try Vandoren number 2 or Legere 2. Their softness will help you produce better sounds and won’t tire you out as much as harder reeds.
Peg
I do not like the peg mechanism on Leblanc contras. I don’t find it to be sufficiently secure to not use it in combination with my neckstrap. Have you experienced any slippage problems so far? Watch out, you don’t want it to happen and drop the instrument. I am surprise to hear the peg is too short, are you playing in sitting position? Anyway, if your peg is too short, you should be able to find a longer peg at Home Depot. Measure it to fit, and cut off the excess. Make sure the peg locking mechanism grips it tight enough to avoid slippage. Yes, the longer peg is likely to be made of a weaker metal, so it will likely flex under the weight of the instrument. Mine do, but not too badly. In any case I always support it with neckstrap and one hand on the instrument at all times. And as long as you keep the instrument in vertical position and well supported, a little flex of the peg shouldn’t worry you too much.
Air
I play bass too and I can tell you what you are experiencing is expected. Contra takes a lot of air to play. Playing at any dynamic louder than mp will like require you to breath every 3 or 4 bars. So it’s just part of the game in getting used to a new instrument. You will be fine in a couple of weeks. Personally I find bari sax takes more air than contras. Hopefully the ensemble music stuff won’t demand you to play long stretches without rest. Normally you get periods of long rest throughout a piece.
Tips
Are you using an instrument stand with the contra? I find K & M bass clarinet stand works well, so does K & M contrabassoon stand.
Make sure the peg has a sizable rubber tip. It might slip otherwise and throw the instrument off balance.
I got tired of the screw on the peg mechanism giving out and causing the peg to slip, so I mark the correct height on the peg and permanently soldered onto it a piece of metal to act as a stop. Not the peg is slippage free and I like it this way. You may not want to do this.
Handle it with extreme care at all time, it’s more delicate than any bass clarinet. Be careful of the long rods and springs. Old springs can break easily.
To prevent the instrument from shifting about in the case during handling and transportation, lay a sizable sheet of soft towel or bubble wrap over the instrument then close the case lid for a good secure tight fit. Also check to make sure the case handle is in good working order.
Post Edited (2005-11-01 02:44)
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-01 02:17
When I was playing one, I had the theater shop at my University weld two pegs together to get one long enough. You might also simply try to find the right size steel stock and get a long enough piece. However this setup does have its risks of coming out from under you as stated above.
I would also say that adjusting the reeds and getting them even is more important than it is on smaller clarinets.
Beyond that, see the excellent comments above.
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-11-01 12:58
Of all the comments above, BaseHorn's are the most on target. I own and play a 1963 vintage Model 340 paperclip. Ken Shaw has some excellent posts about contra reeds and mpcs, which can be searched for here. I really don't think any of us can add to what he has said. I do agree with him that the Leblanc contras roar, so having a meek sound is not typical. When I needed a longer peg for my setup, because I sit on two cushions for a bum hip, I found that a stainless rod worked great. But it does flex! I drilled a hole in a wooden dowel to receive the rod and then insertred the dowel into a crutch tip. It works well! Please note though that the orginal Leblanc peg in metric.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-11-01 15:28
Thanks for all the help so far. It sounds like good information. This evening, I plan to drop by one or two good music stores to look for reeds, a double-hook neckstrap, and maybe a contra ligature.
I had thought about getting a rod from a building supply dealer or whomever sells such things. I had been wondering about how I could put a non-slip tip on it and LCL's suggestion sounds like a good one. I also thought about finding a hard rubber ball (black preferred) and drilling a hole in it to fit the peg in.
I already have a K&M bassoon stand, which I use for my bass. I'll have even more use for it when I'm needing to switch between instruments.
I'll also do a search for Ken Shaw's posts on contra reeds.
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2005-11-01 17:45
One more thing: Playing over the break smoothly can be difficult if there is the slightest thing wrong with the alignment of the large tonehole pads. Also, the double register mechanism needs to be adjusted carefully. You will understand all those little screw adjustments if you take the time and fiddle with them. You could spend a fortune with a repairman if you can't fix the normal "out of adjustment" problems that will inevitably come up.
Get a 3 foot or more length of that decorative light cord with little lights embedded in flexible rubbery clear plastic. You can then run it down both sides of the paperclip and see that each pad closes exactly together with its mates. You may have to use some cork or paper shims to get everything closing exactly together and sealing properly. You can readily see where to put them if you have any mechanical ability at all.
I have been told by someone who should definitely know, that some speaking problems have even been traced to leaks around the resonator screws and out from under the pads. So, it is a sensitive brute despite the size.
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-11-01 17:52
Don, if your band can shell out the cost for one, try to get the K & M contrabassoon stand. It’s built similar to the bass/bassoon stand (similarly priced as well) except the top brace is 4 to 5 times wider. This wider brace will cradle the top bow of the contra perfectly and won’t put any pressure on any keys or rods. On the other hand, even though it’s doable, using the bass/bassoon stand is a little trickier, you need find just the best/right spot to cradle the contra due to a much smaller brace, be super careful where the brace touches the body of the contra that it doesn’t stress any rods or keys.
Also just want to repeat (for the sake of clarity) that there are 2 types of slippage regarding the contra peg mechanism.
One has to do with the end of the peg that contacts the floor surface. Best to have a large rubber stop in the shape of rubber ball or similar so it grips the floor surface with lots of friction. I have heard that cello supply stores carry “wolf” balls that cellist use for their pegs. I haven’t tried myself.
The other slippage has to do with the screw mechanism that grips and tightens the peg through the metal sleeve failing to do so. To avoid this more damaging type of slippage, make sure the diameter of the peg is compatible (not too small) with the diameter of the metal sleeve, and that the tightening screw offers strong grip. To me, this potential area of disaster is no laughing matter, especially on a heavy contrabass that sits fairly high off the ground with gravity its biggest enemy. Do everything you can to ensure that this mechanism is working close to 100% for you. You don’t want to have to try to catch it when the mechanism fails due to inconsideration, where you are in a middle of playing and even if you are fast enough to react, can’t react fast enough to find a safe spot on the body to catch it with your hands without damaging any keys. Be very careful with this. This slippage problem is the reason we see so many classic “bottom bow dents” on contras and to a smaller extend bass clarinets.
Lastly, keep the horn close to you when playing. Hold it as if you are dancing closely with it. Bring it between your legs and “hug” it with your arms, and align it vertically with your upper body, even tilt it slightly towards you will help enforce its balance. Try to have close contact with it as much as possible. This way you will have better control of it and maintain its balance with greater ease.
Willy
Post Edited (2005-11-01 17:59)
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Author: mnorswor
Date: 2005-11-01 18:39
I play quite a bit of contra here in Boston. Actually, I'm playing a Boston Modern Orchestra Project cycle right now doing the North American premiere of Louis Andriessen's Trilogy for the Last Day. Louis' contra parts are AMAZING and he says that he includes the instrument in everything that he writes for orchestra (for all you contra playeds out there)
As to your questions...
Mouthpieces - I use a refaced Selmer C* which I can play on either the Leblanc paperclip or the big Selmer wooden ones. (I'm lucky to have a choice as to which instrument to play when I have to use it because a nearby school owns both and lends them out to me for nothing) Kal Opperman did the re-facing for me and both of my mouthpieces play like a dream. I have tried the Leblanc mpcs and like them for the paperclip but not for the Selmer rosewood models. The bore doesn't seem to be big enough. Also, I have 2 mouthpieces, one I use for a low Eb instrument and one for a low C instrument. The difference in in the facing and the baffle. I also have a Fobes Debut which works great on the Leblancs. I highly recommend these mouthpieces if you're looking for a cheaper alternative. I just prefer the sound of my Selmers a bit more.
Reeds - I use Vandoren #3 contrabass clarinet reeds. The only issue I have with them is that they're so large from day to day I can't get them to dry out. So, I sit them in front of a fan at the end of the night so that thy're not still soaked the next day. I find that if I have too soft a reed, I squeak more at lower dynamic levels. It's almost better for me to have a little more resistance.
\
About pegs... I don't use a peg for the Leblanc paperclip. I'm 6' tall and just sit the instrument on the chair without a peg and have a little pad underneath it to prevent scratching and bending of any keywork.
About hyperventilating...breath big and blow long. I try not to restrict my airway at all, playing with a very open throat and oral cavity. When I play with a closed cavity and higher tongue position, I did get a little dizzy when I first started playing the instrument. Don't know what I can say to help you with this other than to practice and get used to the instrument.
Don't know if this helps, but there it is
Best regards,
Michael Norsworthy
www.michaelnorsworthy.com
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-01 18:46
Sometimes, I will sand a peg a little circumferentially to keep from slipping.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-11-02 15:51
Last night, I bought a couple of Vandoren 2 contra reeds from one music store and ordered a Rovner ligature from another. (Neither had a contra ligature in stock.) The new reeds worked a lot better for me than the Vandoren 2.5 bari sax reeds my colleague had been using. I can get a pretty good sound out of it and can play from jake brake*--I mean low D--to F above the staff with little problem. (I didn't realize there was a low D key on the instrument until BassetHorn pointed it out.) I now just need to get used to the instrument so that I can get rid of all the squeaks I was making last night when I was noodling around with it and playing Bach cello suites an octave too low.
My next purchase needs to be a double-hook neckstrap. I forgot to get one last night.
*For anyone who doesn't know what a "jake brake" is, it is a type of engine braking system on diesel trucks that often makes a loud low-pitched noise when used.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-03 16:42
Contras don't sqeak, they squawk.
The contra uses a whole new set of muscles around your mouth, so expect to come up in strength over time like you would if you had just gone from Bb to Bass.
As said above, be very vigilant for leaks, suspect that they are there, becuase they probably are. Also, given the width of the reed, its pretty easy for them to be unbalanced from rail to rail, so I think a little proper adjustment will go a long way.
Good luck, lots of patience, and have fun!
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-11-03 17:00
Yours may squawk, but I can sure get mine to squeak. I can unintentionally create noises from it at high enough pitches that soprano clarinetists would consider them to be squeaks if they came out of their instruments. (Bats might even cringe.)
When playing it, I have been noticing large condensation drips landing in my lap. At first, I could not figure out where they were coming from. I finally realized that the moisture was leaking out the tuning joint. If there is a gap big enough for water to drip out of, I wonder if it is also acting as an air leak that is affecting how the instrument plays and possibly contributing to those squeaks. Any suggestions as how to fix this leak? I was thinking of wrapping the male portion of the connection in plastic wrap or something similar to help close the gap.
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Author: archer1960
Date: 2005-11-03 17:03
Don Poulsen wrote:
...
> water to drip out of, I wonder if it is also acting as an air
> leak that is affecting how the instrument plays and possibly
> contributing to those squeaks. Any suggestions as how to fix
> this leak? I was thinking of wrapping the male portion of the
> connection in plastic wrap or something similar to help close
> the gap.
I would think there's a very good chance this is affecting you. Try teflon plumber's tape (available at any hardware store); it's designed to stop liquid leaks, and is extremely thin, so you can put on about as thin of a layer as you want to start with, and then add more later. It's also very stretchy, so it will conform to the tenon.
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-11-03 20:54
I have played a contra for a very, very long time. And both instruments-the one I played in '63 and the one I play on now-leak mositure this way. And neither one was/is affected by this in terms of tone or playability. Thus don't fix anything that isn't broken. The problem may be the octave mechanism or perhaps a pad leaking. I had a similar problem a few years ago, and it was a pad not being closed by a lever operated by the finger above it.
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-03 23:19
If its really squeaking at those frequencies, though, I'd suspect a leak. A normal contra "squeak" where the reed pickup a tortional motion really does sound like an angry goose.
The Selmer pink tuning slide grease is also a worthy investment for a contra.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-11-04 14:20
I think that many of my squeaks can be prevented by taking the same advice given to soprano clarinetists converting to bass--take more of the mouthpiece into my mouth. I think my bottom lip has been touching the reed too closely toward the tip. It seems that the less pressure put on the reed, the better.
The other alternative, the one that I prefer, would be to tip the instrument away from me so that the mouthpiece angle is closer to that used with a soprano. This will allow the bottom lip to be closer to the butt end of the reed without needing to take so much of the mouthpiece into my mouth. After I get that neckstrap I keep talking about, I will be more able to try this out.
By the way, does anyone (Charles Bay, perhaps) make a more angled contra neck? Or am I the first to want one?
I will continue to experiment, learn, and figure out if difficulties lie with me or the instrument.
(Note to self: Pick up tuning slide grease when buying double-hook neckstrap.)
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-11-04 15:41
I've never heard of an improved angle neck for the contra. The flat mouthpiece lay bugs me too, but I don't think its a real hinderance.
However, David Spiegelthal is offering neck angle realignment services online (though ovbiously he can't pitch it here) - so that or something similar might be an option.
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Author: LCL
Date: 2005-11-04 15:57
The angle of the neck on my contra is adequate and IMHO immitates that seen on Charlie Bays BC necks. I own two of those too. I think you may be on to something in regard to the amount of Mpc taken. Leblanc publishes a small phamphlet about the contra that gives a lot of tips. I think it was written by the late Lucien Calliet about 1962-sorry about the spelling!
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Author: BassetHorn
Date: 2005-11-04 22:19
I also feel the neck angle on the Leblanc contras is very comfortable. On the other hand, I find the angle on the Selmer and Bundy contras to be too flat.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-11-05 04:41
I don't have a contrabass, but I do have a Buescher (Bundy) contra-alto for which I re-angled the neck (a la original Charles Bay) and I find it much more comfortable than the original, nearly-horizontal angle.
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