 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: cowboyjonus
Date: 2004-03-20 07:56
hey im a high school senior from texas. i auditioned at curtis, juilliard, cleveland institute and smu, a local school in dallas. i was just wondering about all of you other seniors or whatever. where you all end up and what you thought about the whole audition process. and why you chose the particular places that you auditioned and that you will ultimatley attend next year. i know those letters will be coming soon so keep me posted.
you know, as far as clarinet we are the future of tommorow.
oh and i hope yall are all taking a big break from practicing, i know i am.
think about it you deserve a break!
jon j
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-03-20 15:13
Not part of that crowd,Cowboy, but good luck to you....and stay out of Vegas during Spring Break
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-20 15:17
My daughter just completed auditions @ Michigan, Oberlin, NEC & Mannes. She also auditioned locally & received a scholarship - a great fallback. Michigan has accepted her, too. (for a Music School - UM is pretty awesome, much smaller than one would think! - really, a separate music campus)
She is tired, too & has been resting for the last week or so. 4 - 5 hours a day (& more on weekends) is tough when the work spans so much material. The Mozart, Concertino, Stravinsky 3 Pieces, Orchestral excerpts, Major & Minor Scales (natural, harmonic & melodic !).
Practicing has made her a much, much better player - she is approaching professional status IMO. Wonderful.
A break is fine - just don't take the saddle off the horse.
Curious on why you chose to audition @ Curtis (besides the free tuition)? The room & board part bothered my daughter's mother. My daughter's teacher's wife was kind enough to talk to us, too - she is a recent Curtis grad. We chose Mannes, in part, because it was small (some say like a European Conservatory) & because of NYC & it's opportunities.
The decision to "go Conservatory" really has to be thoroughly thought out. A school like UM isn't a one-way street.
best of luck to you,
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-20 17:24
C.J., btw, why didn't you Audition at NTSU - who is the teacher at "Smoo" ? Did you consider Rice ? best, mw
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-03-20 17:39
My son will be doing that next year. He's looked at USC, UCLA, Claremont colleges, Cal Poly, Santa Clara University (local) and strangely Cal Tech. He wants to look at Northwestern. He hasn't decided whether to major on clarinet, piano or composition as yet. The only conservatories he'll consider must be a part of a larger school with excellent math/sci programs. He has decided that whatever he does will include many of his interests and understands that it will lessen his career in anyone. At least currently.
So the auditions are draining. Maybe composition, with a portfolio then.
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Author: cowboyjonus
Date: 2004-03-20 20:48
MW
the teacher at smu is paul garner he is assosiate principal in dallas symphony. he has been my teacher for 2 1/2 years now he has taken me to new heights. he is an amazing teacher and the studio is very strong.
MW
i did not consier rice because i could not endure 4 years of working my butt off for academics if im really there to do music.
MW i auditioned at curits because
A. its is a very strong school overall and when you are surrounded be such great musical talent you are almost forced to get better. i think the atmosphere is a big part of whatever school you decide on. if people around you are not totally in to it then it will most likley bring you down. but if you are constantly competing with your peers ( in a friendly manner of course) then you will be able reach your full potential
B. a lot of the recent clarinet students that attended curtis have won jobs in a lot of major symphonies and operas so the teacher must be doing something right
im going the conservatory route because i dont want to do academics. i want to focus soley on the clarinet. i know i am taking a risk but i guess im a risk taker.
and as for the housing situation at curtis i think i would be ready to be out on my own . im not saying i wouldnt prefer to stay in dorms for a couple of years but i think at curtis it would be a very good way to help me learn how to manage my time and money and get me ready for the real world.
best regards
jonathan jones
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Author: Eric
Date: 2004-03-20 21:04
I guess I'll add my list although Jon already knows it. I auditioned for 7 colleges (Curtis, Juilliard, Eastman, NEC, CIM, Peabody and Rice). I auditioned for those schools because I felt the environment incorporated with the teacher would provide a good base for future endeavors. I have been "accepted" (not officially yet) into Eastman and Rice, but I would really like to goto a more orchestrally driven conservatory. Although Eastman has a band and Rice has a university, I think both would be great backups.
As for the auditioning process itself, I would say it was grueling and stressful but a good experience for future auditions (I have done many auditions but there were the ones that really mattered). I seemed to have gotten better at it as I went from college to college. I too am taking a break from practicing, but I am going to start up again because I have some solo stuff to do later in the year and I want to be ready for my summer camp adventures.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-20 21:15
Paul Garner is very well known. One of the things my daughter had to think about was studying with her present teacher for 4 (more) years @ college. Leslie & her teacher were each somewhat negative on the that; Leslie's teacher said "3 years is a long time, by the time that the 4th year comes around, everyone is ready for a change - 7 years with one teacher? No way!"
I don't think Conservatory is for everyone. My daughter has 1 "B" grade shy of a 4.0 in High School & received high scores on her Boards. She has taken AP classes so we know she had learned some. still at a regular College she will be exposed to lots of MANY OTHER important things. This bothers Leslie, because she really wants to attend Conservatory. As parents, one of things we like really like about Michigan & Oberlin is the double Major program. At Oberlin, there really is NO timeframe for the adoption of a double major. I really like that freedom. They encourage learning - learning is paramount. Leslie is very taken with the Conservatory atmosphere, too.
Have you had a lesson with Montanaro ? Have you talked with people who have graduated recently? Placement in jobs is very important. Fred Ormand @ Michigan has a great track receord, so do other teachers for that matter - many clearly do not.
best,
mw
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-20 23:16
I would imagine North Texas.
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Author: cowboyjonus
Date: 2004-03-21 05:16
north texas
ya i dont think thats a very great place to go to for music maybe jazz i dont know
seems they produce so so players with bad time
thats just what i have experienced with people from there
plus theres so many people you will probably end up studying with a grad student for a couple of years sounds like fun right
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-21 15:09
How do you know these things? Have you checked to see what their grads are doing? I personally know several of their grads who are VERY successful. They have a number of former students who are Principal Clarinets throughout the world.
The Clarinet Faculty @ the University of North TX (formerly (N)orth (T)exas (S)tate (U)niversity) are amongst the very best. Their DMA Program is one fo the very best anywhere.
What have you experienced? I assume you mean first hand when you say "experienced", right?
"So so players with bad time" - does that mean they can't count?
mw
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-21 15:28
Here is a Link to the UNT (University of North Texas) Clarinet Home Page. Contains Faculity bio's & a Link to audio clips, one featuring Dr. James Gillespie. I've listened to Dr Gillespie & Dr. Scott play together at Oklahoma Clarinet Symposiums. John Scott is a "grand teacher" of mine --- my former teacher was his student & is/was a Principal with several Orchestras.
http://www.music.unt.edu/clarinet/start.html
Post Edited (2004-03-21 15:28)
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Author: thechosenone
Date: 2004-03-21 23:07
IMO, Don Montanaro is a true god of a clarinet teacher. If you're talking track records, there is no one in his NATION that probably has a better one than he does. Of course, I may be biased because I am a student of his, but I'm trying to speak objectively.
Burt Hara was his first student at Curtis, and he was the principal at Philly for a year, and is now principal at Minnesota.
Most recently, a senior at Curtis, Jose Franch-Ballester, won the young artists thing in New York. www.yca.org
He has also taught the principal of Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, and the to-be principal of the Met. Oh, and Sam Caviezel, the former principal in Philly.
As a teacher, his style of teaching will immediately transform you into a player of a different level. Things that you may have stuggled in the past with, (Beethoven 6, Beethoven 4, Copland legato), will come very easily.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-21 23:55
Chosen, if Montanaro did not teach at Curtis, I might agree with you. But given the enormous talent that you must have to go to Curtis(near professional IMHO), I really think that even a good teacher(not great) would be able to make it. That is certainly not to take much away from the guy, as it takes enormous ability to play and teach at that level. That would be like saying Joe Torre is a great baseball manager. To have the talent around him with the Yankees, he ought to be able to win ballgames. Many of the kids who go to 1726 Locust St. have the drive and determination to make it.
On a seperate note, I always find it amuzing that students will try and go to big name schools. Why go to Juilliard for clarinet? I have not seen anyone make it big from Juilliard in quite some time, and frankly cannot think of anyone off the top of myt head. Is Juilliard a good school? Darn right! For clarinet? Maybe not right now... MW, please let me know who from UNT is making it. I had for many years considered UNT nothing but a glorified music ed school. I am curious to know who has really made it as a player.
If I were a student all over again, I would have looked not so much at name of school, but graduates of the program who were making it. I constantly see several trends right now. First, Yehuda Gilad seems to be producing a good number of graduates who win auditions. Second, the teachers at CCM. After that, I know I have seen a couple from Curtis, then maybe Rice, N'Western, and finally CIM. Other than that, you do not really hear anyone else being placed in orchestras. If all you want to do is teach somewhere, I guess a simple DMA from a B school or higher is adequate.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-22 00:36
Some posts back things turned negative due to what I view as immaturity. I'm going to turn 52 in a few weeks & I got fooled here. I thought I was dealing with adults ... well, I'm not so sure of that.
There are (many) clarinet teachers that have friends at UNT. I promise everyone that no teacher would approve of negative posts by their students, to be sure.
In part, I feel responsible for having participated here. Sorry, but I'm out of here.
I do sincerely wish all of you the best of clarinet careers.
mw
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Author: zeana
Date: 2004-03-22 01:23
If you're really looking for someone to study some REAL clarinet with, do not ignore studying with Todd Levy at the university of Wisconsin- Milwaukee. He is only the BEST clarinetist in the country at this time. He holds the principal spot in the Milwaukee Symphony and the Sante Fe Opera, among other ensembles as well. While not many people would want to come to Wisconsin to go to school, I would strongly advise looking into Todd's qualifications-but only if you're a serious clarinetist. He's recruiting graduate students from places such as Julliard and Eastman.
Just a suggestion from one of his current students.
~Amanda
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-22 01:35
Best right now...I think Ricardo Morales, and Anthony McGill would pose a serious threat. Both won some of the most prestigious positions for quite some years. I am slapping my head trying to come up with the name of the fellow who took Joe Rabbai's spot in the Met. He would certainly be up there too!
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Author: LeOpus1190s
Date: 2004-03-22 01:38
I would have to say that brandon isn't being immature whatsoever. I agree with what he has to say.
As far as eastman being a "band" school, it couldn't be further from the truth. I am pretty secure in saying that eastman has the two BEST Sophomore level clarinetists in the country (seeing as those were the top picks for every single other major conservatory named here). I have recordings of the eastman orchestras, and they are fantastic. I'm sorry but like that comment is just so irrating because it is way off base.
All these kids who audition at these big school, BIG deal, doesn't mean anything.
I also find it somewhat strange to see parents commenting in place of their children. Really makes me wonder who is the real driving force in the music endeavors.
What brandon said isn't immature. He is right on the dot. I rarely go on here and post becasue it so annoying to see how people can have such an inacurate view of how the clarinet/music world really is.
Also to make judgements on certain schools in such a way, will COST you. Don't think that the big teachers and performers dont' look at these pages and that they forget about these posts AND the people who post them.
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Author: Eric
Date: 2004-03-22 02:03
Brandon
I would want to goto Juilliard not only for the environment but also for the possiblity of studying with Ricardo Morales.
LeOpus1190s
My comment about Eastman being a band school is party true as Ken Grant explained to me. They have mock auditions every semester and those who place the highest get their choosing of what orchestral piece to play that semester(If a student won the audition they would get to choose to play principal on an orchestral piece). My comment was more towards the fact that they are a larger school compared to other conservatories and the opportunity to play in orchestra would be much more limited as to a place where a band does not exist. I have heard their orchestra and I found it to be great, but the sheer opportunity of playing in it all the time is not possible, I would have to play in one of their bands/wind ensembles when I didn't have a chance to play in orchestra. Even Mr. Grant said that the problem of playing in orchestra sometimes took students away from Eastman towards smaller schools. Please let me know if you have heard differing information.
As for the big school thing, I agree with you. It is easy for people (including me) to get caught up in the prestige of schools rather then what the school will actually provide. I just want to goto a school that has my ideal environment and teacher. However, most of the big name schools fulfill these requisites. Even if I got into a top school, it would still be up to me to make my time there worth it. In the end, I believe it would take hard work and persistence to make it; great teachers and experiences certainly do not hurt.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-22 02:27
Eric, if you are wanting to make sure you study with Morales, I would make sure I was in his studio before committing to go there. As for the environment, yes, Juilliard is fantastic. I too wanted to go to Juilliard to study with Morales when I was thinking of doing a masters in clarinet. I just couldn't afford Juilliard at the time. When I was looking in to it, I spoke with one or two of his students and got the impression his studio is quite small, especially for undergrads. This was about three years ago, so things might have changed.
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Author: Keil
Date: 2004-03-22 03:11
Brandon, Stephen Williamson won Joshep Rabbai's MET spot from what i understand. The consistent trend i have noticed thus far in all of these trends is how little we look at the teacher and how much we look at the name of the school and the drive of the student. I garauntee that a student who studies at East Pocahontos U that practices regularly, listens attentively, and has the drive/motivation to be successful can do so regardless of who his/her teacher is. It might be slightly easier to be in one place or another but in the end the result is the same, success. Sure Curtis produces great musicians but why wouldn't it? For one the standards of getting in are extraordinarily high. Besides that playing with great people constantly keeps you on your toes and prepares you far better than any lesson you'll ever have. I think the primary objective for any perform is to perform. You can take lessons with Montanaro until you're blue in the face but if you can't apply the knowledge then it doesn't amount to much. I know UNT grads who are top rate musicians AND teachers so to make a blanket statement that would suggest anything less is a little unwise. For every "bad apple" there are 2 or 3 really good ones. Any where you go you will find players whom you think don't meet the standards of the organization, take it with a grain of salt and keep going. If you want to look at track records you'll also notice that to date there aren't many lucrative clarinet performing positions open so the question then becomes, what do you do in the meantime? There's alot to be said about a liberal arts degree, it for one ensures your marketability beyond the practice room. The reality is that what you have dubbed as your future career probably won't be exactly the way you thought it was. Trust me there are MANY great clarinetist at MANY different schools just waiting to audition who are getting top rate training. You forget that no longer does one have to go to NY or Philly or Boston to be amazing... you can create a name for yourself wherever you are and success will find you. It's not just Juilliard, Eastman, CIM, and USC with great clarinet studios... be AWARE! Great clarinetist are EVERYWHERE... and when the time comes you might find yourself playing 2nd to someone who got their degrees from a lesser known school with powerhouse players... one thing's for sure, when those clarinetist leave those lesser known schools they have NO doubt about the quality of playing out there. If anything they're more prepared cause they have trained that much harder to compete with the "big name" schools and mark my words, they will be successful!
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-22 03:43
Keil, I would have to disagree. I firmly believe that drive and determination alone with mediocre teaching will not turn out a professional level player. I would also have to disagree with there being "great" clarinetists everywhere. There are many "very good" clarinetists, but probably only the top 1% or less of these "very good" players make it in professional playing, whether it is orchestral or studio. I would be interested to know the ratio of conservatory grads that get jobs playing vs. those that do not. That is not even taking into consideration those that graduate from state schools(not knocking state schools, as there are a few good ones). Even Curtis...how many Curtis grads make a living playing their clarinet after graduation? As much as I hate to speculate, I would imagine 25% or fewer. That might be too generous.
Bottom line is that most "very good" clarinetists have what it takes to play 75-80% of the orchestral rep. Far fewer have the ability to win a job to be able to play in an orchestra. Very few people got where they are in music without a great teacher. That coupled with drive and determination with a bit of luck along the way might land you a playing gig. I really do not believe that one can be very successful without all three.
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Author: mw
Date: 2004-03-22 03:56
LeOpus1190s said:
"I would have to say that brandon isn't being immature whatsoever. I agree with what he has to say."
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My comment was NOT directed @ Brandon. Have no problem at all with (his) intelligent conversation. Not that I agree with everything; that's not a requirement.
LeOpus1190s also said:
"I also find it somewhat strange to see parents commenting in place of their children. Really makes me wonder who is the real driving force in the music endeavors."
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You don't know anything about me or my children. Lets leave it there.
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Author: cowboyjonus
Date: 2004-03-22 21:22
i just wanted to clarify that i was not trying to degrade unt by anymeans. i was just making a point that i had an experience with with some of the players from there and they did not impress me . thats not to say there are no good players or teachers there or to degrade anyone who decides to go there.
from now on i will try to keep my opinions to myself
sorry
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Author: Chedmanus
Date: 2004-03-22 23:52
I think our friend Brandon is speaking a bit too boldly for his britches. What he says has some truth to it, but frankly if you pursue this with that mentality, you will not be that successful, or in the end fullfilled. I find it sad that young people go to certain schools because people have been winning jobs from those teachers. Nobody ever really thinks about how they want to play, just what will win them a job. To be more honest, when I hear the people who win these jobs recently, they all sound the same, machines, boring, no musicianship, just like all the others. True, Morales is great, but he himself did not follow the crowd. I think more young players need to think more of why they are in this, to get an orchestral position, or to be a musician; why do we play an instrument? For me, Id rather be an accountant than spend all my time hacking at excerpts for hours and hours, for years and years with that mindset. There is so much more to this than that. If you take a look at the successful players from a few years back, such as Marcellus, Cohen, Valdepenias, Wright, Brymer, Leister, etc, they do something very special and unique; they are musicians. All I hear from the new generation is pure machinery, no wonder orchestras are folding, who wants to hear that crap?
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-23 01:33
Chedmanus, I may be big for my britches, however I see absolutely no connection between musicianship and orchestras folding. I think that has much more to do with loss of revenue. Its not that people do not want to hear concerts, its that with the current economy companies are forced to pull sponsorships. Take the Met for example. Chevron was a sponsor of the live broadcasts for years and years. I really have no reason or proof that due to the lack of artistry they pulled out. I would lean more to the current state of the economy.
The clarinetists which you named as musical were from a different generation of orchestral applicants(aside from Valdepenas, which I have no clue when he won the TSO job). Today, applicants are expected to be very mechanical. Mechanical in the sense that they can play anything technical. I would even say though that there are very musical individuals who have won jobs recently. Who is not to say that Morales has conformed to the system? Yes, he has a wonderful sound, but so do many of the individuals who win jobs today. Is it the clarinetists fault or the conductors? To say that it is the clarinetists fault to me would be incorrect. Conductors look for individuals who can come in and conform. Conductors are not looking for someone who is totally musical if they cannot play the hardest technical passages with ease. What is the one thing that all of the clarinets you mentioned had the fortune of? Good conductors, albeit my personal hatred of Maazel would make me exclude Cohen,although is is a very good clarinetist and teacher. If students are not winning jobs from a particular school...why would a serious student want to go there? If students are winning jobs from a particular teacher, why is that sad? I see no reason it should be!
Geez...I am writing too much and probably repeating myself too many times. But in a nutshell, lets face it. Mechanical is winning jobs. Whereas I cannot substantiate my reasons for orchestrral bankruptcy with solid proof, I cannot imagine the so called "lack of musicality" is a valid one.
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Author: Brandon
Date: 2004-03-23 01:35
The 19-year-old orchestra gave its final performance May 9 after years of close calls with lagging ticket sales and too-few donations, and its efforts were complicated by the faltering economy. The orchestra's collapse followed the failures of at least seven others nationally.
--- as taken from the Miami Herald regarding the Florida Philharmonic. Where do you see it mention lack of musicality?
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Author: ginny
Date: 2004-03-23 04:02
LeOpus1190s also said:
"I also find it somewhat strange to see parents commenting in place of their children. Really makes me wonder who is the real driving force in the music endeavors."
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You don't know anything about me or my children. Lets leave it there. MW
Well said.
Of course I am the driving force, I drive him to clarinet lessons, piano lessons, youth symphony, and pay for it all. You think I need to force my son to play? But my son has is making his own choices about schools, if anything we are pressing him to double major, most of you will not land that orchestra job.
Post Edited (2004-03-23 04:08)
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-03-23 04:15
This thread has run its course and is now closed...GBK
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