 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jason
Date: 2002-02-03 09:13
The other day i soaked my Eb mouthpiece in tap water with Malic acid and baking powder overnight. The next day it changed colour (brown, like when you soak a mouthpiece in hot water. However, this is tap water.) What happened? I did this to my B45 but nothing happened. Is there anything wrong i did?
Can anyone reccomend me any tips on cleaning the mouthpiece?
(Someone (Jean Johnson) reccomended this method for 10 mins but i did it overnight. Is this the fault?)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2002-02-03 15:48
Dear Jason,
I have never heard of your cleaning chemical formulation as applied to mouthpieces. I can conjure up some chemical reactions with the given chemicals that are not very friendly to the MP and might change the color.
When cleaning mouthpieces one should be very careful about mixing chemicals together and the time of exposure to those chemicals (temperature and concentration of chemicals are also important). Generally build up on mouthpieces is of two different types - 1) organic debris (food particles and the attendent bacteria, and mold using them as an energy source), and 2) inorganic mineral deposits (ususally the white stuff at the end of the beak and inside the MP). A thorough cleaning solution should attack both kinds of deposits. A soaking for 1 hour in a 1:5 dilution of acetic acid (or white vinegar) will remove many inorganic deposits and also get rid of some, but not all organic deposits and will not completely sanitize the MP, but better than nothing.
The process of vulcanizing rubber to make it hard (leaves some unreacted chemicals) or the combination and type of plasticizers used in some plastic mouthpieces make them sensitive to other reactions with certain types of chemicals that can change the coloration of the surface of the MP. Owners of the older (classic Kaspar, etc.) should be especially cautious of using chemicals on their MP because of the older vulcanizing chemical process used at the time of manufacture unless the cleaning product has been tested and proved safe for this type of hard rubber.
One should (IMHO) only use established cleaning solutions that have been proven safe and non-harmful (e.g. changing coloration) preparations when cleaning MPs. One should also follow the manufacturer's directions explicitly and not extend or change the timing or concentration. The axiom "if a little bit is good - a lot should be great" often has the exact opposite effect.
I do not put anything (brush, swab, etc.) into my MPs but do try to practice good oral hygiene (brushing my teeth, not eating just prior to playing, etc.) and wash out the MP with regular tap water after playing which helps prevent build up in the first place. Different people have a different body chemistry which causes inorganic build up quickly - some have very little. Unless you sanitize the MP the residual colonization by bacteria and mold will come back pretty quickly.
The Doctor
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Author: jjclarinet
Date: 2005-10-17 14:55
Dear Jason,
I realise that you posted your comment about your e-flat mouthpiece a long, long time ago, but I just came across it now and I wanted to reply. I'm sorry that you had problems trying the malic acid on your mouthpiece. However, such a chemical is not meant to be mixed with baking soda at the same time, nor is it meant to be used as a soaking agent for such a long duration as overnight. I have revised my explanation on my website to make sure that my explanation is clearer for others in the future, so I should thank you for your comment! Also, if your mouthpiece has become discolored, you can rub cork grease into it and often it will turn black again.
Best wishes,
Jean Johnson
Post Edited (2005-10-17 14:56)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-17 16:14
Omar, does he mean maleic acid? or somethin' else. ?Its source? Whatever, with baking powder, an obviously bad combination for [old?] hard rubber. Yes vinegar, how about your mp cleaner, certainly better. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-17 22:51
(Disclaimer - I sell a mouthpiece cleaner and service to restore MPs to black)
The culprit in old mouthpieces (in general) is the sulphur that was used as a vulcanization catalyst, often in excess to ensure complete vulcanization. In modern rubber mouthpieces they no longer use sulphur but combinations of catalytic chemicals and metals. I have never heard of using maelic acid but acetic acid (vinegar) will remove some of the mineral deposits, primarily calcium, from mouthpieces (a 50% solution soak for 30 minutes, at 20 degrees C, and a soft tooth brush often works). Some mineral deposits will not be removed by acetic acid and old deposits gradually form more difficult to remove chemical compounds over time that acetic acid will not dissolve.
The chemistry of the surface sulphur turning green, tan, or brown is relatively complex and the chemical treatment to reverse these colored sulphur compounds that I have developed is both toxic and also subject to exact temperature and timing parameters - not a DIY project for non chemists. Unless someone has a magic bullet treatment - please speak up if you do - it is very difficult to return green or brown mouthpieces back to black. These green and brown sulphur compounds are much more stable than elemental sulphur and therefore the color change is the favored chemical reaction. Sunlight accelerates the color change so do not leave your antique mouthpiece in sunlight if possible. The colored compounds (lamp black or other black carbon compounds are mixed with the rubber to give rubber the black color) do not hurt playing characteristics that I have noted. Some people do not care about the color of their mouthpiece - others do!
L. Omar Henderson
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-10-17 23:22
TKS, Doc., Omar- Having ?too much? curiousity and a few minutes, I looked in my old HB of Ch/Phy for malic acid, seems like it might be a keto-acid. ?IF? it works on reducing/re-crosslinking surface sulfur [a VG description], perhaps its your magic bullet, but I dont know where to find it ! MC/GBK, have I wandered into no-mans land agin, If so just delete. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2005-10-17 23:35
Maleic acid is a relaively weak acid and the reaction actually requires stronger reagents. I will try maleic acid - from my chemical storehouse and give you the results. Never say never in chemistry because we cannot predict all the chemical reactions taking place - often we go back in retrospect to try and decipher just what has happened!
L. Omar Henderson
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