 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-10-04 02:48
I have been having a problem with the bell of my Selmer 9*. It goes on just fine when I put my clarinet together, but i have a problem with taking it off. It just seems to be stuck unless I pull really hard, which I don't like doing because I'm afraid of bending some of the keywork. I have also greased the cork well, so that isn't the problem. Is this due to humidity (it has been rather humid lately) or it something else?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-04 02:59
Most of the time it's due to the wood binding. The end of the tenon might be swelling with the moisture/humidity and the wood is making a very tight connection with the socket of the bell. You can take it to a tech and explain the problem. Best solution (IMO) is to have the socket of the bell SLIGHTLY widened by a tech, and if it's too wide and slips off TOO easily, have the tenon of the bottom joint recorked so it's slightly thicker.
Basically, you want the CORK to produce the fit, not the WOOD.
Alexi
PS - Do a search on "binding" and you'll see that it's a very common problem. Although I usually hear of it with the barrel and top joint (where most of the moisture from your breath hits first)
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2005-10-04 03:00)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-04 03:52
An alternative approach, have a tech turn the lower joint on his lathe, eliminating any high or rough spots in the wooden exposed parts of the tenon. It's fairly simple and easy. You can almost always ease the fit without even damaging the cork.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
Clarinet repairs and overhauls
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-04 10:58
Walter,
I thought about that, but seeing as the tenons (to me) seem to be very thin already, I thought making them MORE thin wouldn't be the way to go. Or is it usually so slight a change in diameter that it doesn't make a difference?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-04 15:18
I would cast my vote with Alexi for two obvious reasons:
First, metal is much easier to 'work'. Therefore far less likely that there will be any need to add or remove anything, you just 'move' it until it's right.
Second, male tenons are seldom, if ever, absolutely round. The result of turning a tenon on a lathe will be high and low, thick/thin, areas. The larger the tenon, the greater the differences can be. You might find, rather suddenly, that you've made a mess of things. If you feel you *must* remove body material, it's best to do so by hand. Without getting into technicalities, you can feel miniscule differences much better than you can see them. A good tech also has a 'trick' or two up his/her sleeve whereby "touch" may be intensified and the result of handworking a tenon reduction will be imperceptible. Again, in my opinion, this (removing body material) is a "last resort" procedure.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 10:31
"Basically, you want the CORK to produce the fit, not the WOOD."
I have to disagree with you there, Alexi.
Tenons are designed to be as good and as easy a fit in the sockets as possible WITHOUT cork, there should be no binding or rocking motion when tried before fitting the cork. The cork is only acting as a gasket to make an airtight seal, and exerting enough pressure to hold the joints together, but not too tight or loose.
The best tenon design should have the cork slot placed towards the lower end leaving more wood at the body end (and still a good 3mm around the tenon tip, preferrably metal tipped) as this will reduce any wobble.
The worst tenons I've seen are on some wooden B&H clarinets (Series 2-20, Edgware, Emperor, Imperial 926 etc., the 14.9 bore ones made in the '60s and early '70s) where the middle tenon has the same width cork slot as the top and bell tenons (they used the same cutter on all of them) - and there's only about 1mm at most of wood at the body end, and this joint being the most important joint on the clarinet is only held tight by the amount of cork at the body end, but this isn't enough to keep them from wobbling as the cork eventually gives under stress, and the long Bb packs up. And the wobbling can even cause the socket on the lower joint to split.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-05 11:12)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-10-05 13:35
I never would have thought that the wood should be making the contact. But won't the wood eventually wear anyway leaving the cork to do most of the work? I figure with the amount of assembling/dissassembling, if the wood is tight enough a fit to keep it from rocking, won't it wear down?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 14:44
If the joints are well maintained and the right amount of grease is used, the wood will never wear down.
The best tenons and sockets are the completely metal sleeved ones, though climate and humidity change can cause problems with these - the linings or sleeves can either come loose in dry conditions or in the case of lined sockets, the wood can split when it shrinks around the metal lined socket.
If the joints are a very loose fit before the cork is fitted (in that they wobble a lot) and a thick cork is then fitted on to compensate for the looseness, this still won't be a reliable solution as the joint can still rock.
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 2005-10-05 14:50
BassClarinetGirl, you wrote "It just seems to be stuck unless I pull really hard". I would infer from this that you are not twisting the bell as you are removing it. If this is correct, this may be the entire problem, as you should twist each of the joints back and forth as you are disassembling them (and assembling them). You should not just push and pull them.
If I misinterpretted your statement, just go back to the other suggestions.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-05 16:10
Chris,
You say metal sleeved tenons are the best. I agree, they are, but not for clarinets. Because, as you say, climate and humidity can cause problems with these. You explain further that they can become loose and/or can cause the wood to split.
Frankly, that doesn't look good to me by any stretch.
It sounds to me like you're describing a flute joint or sax neck tenon fit. It doesn't take much observation to find very different mechanics involved. Clarinet (oboe, etc.) joints are *designed* to retain cork gaskets to make a seal, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
- ron b -
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-10-05 16:33
Thanks everyone,
Don- I do twist it, but the fit is so tight that it doesn't move very far, so to get it off I do have to pull on it and twist it at the same time.
Living in Minnesota- I think I'm going to wait a little while until winter sets in, just to make sure that it isn't due to the excessive amount of humidity that has set in lately. (Reeds are also an absolute joy to work with here....)
And actually, the lower joint tenon does not have a metal sleeve/cap. The upper tenon is completely covered with metal, where the articulated G# is.
But thank you for all these suggestions, I will definately run a search on "binding" and consult a tech, if this continues to be a problem, I will definately get it taken care of.
Thanks again!
Becca
BCG
Post Edited (2005-10-05 17:13)
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 18:15
[ Portions deleted; Chris P. is an employee of Howarth's and did not disclose such until much later. My apologies for missing this and letting Chris P. misuse this BBoard. Mark Charette ]
Wooden piccolos and some wooden flutes have a similar concept.
Some Selmer clarinets (I can't remember which model) have metal tenon rings at the top as well as the metal tenon cap on the end, but in between them is wood where the cork is glued.
And on Selmer clarinets with the lined middle socket (with artic. G#) there can be up to four retaining screws on these (as in the K series) or two (one at the bottom and one through the socket ring as on BTs and CTs) or just the one (through the socket ring as on Series 9s and 10/10s) as well as the two pillars that go right through to the inside of the socket.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-05 19:03
You've just added to the wealth of information to be found here, Chris. Thank you for the great contribution. I love to visit here so often because I find new info and ideas I had no concept of before. I've seen a few metal sockets but none quite like the ones you describe.
The idea of reinforced tenons seems sound enough. Do you know how they hold up over the long haul? It seems to me they might work loose over time and need 'adjusting'... or, are they pretty stable? I mean, I sometimes see thumbrests that just don't want to stay put, they get wobbly and 'clunky' and it takes some doing to stabilize them. Others appear inclined to never move, no matter what. I wonder if that's how it is with metal sockets and tenons. Maybe it's a characteristic of different pieces and/or kinds of wood -- or, something like that. Fascinating stuff....
- r b -
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 20:20
The metal sleeves are a tight fit against the wood, and the inside of the metal sleeve is jagged to grip as well (as you may have seen with old clarinet socket rings that have come loose), and they're glued on - plus there are several holes going through to the wood in the cork slot to allow some glue to come through to the surface - this is hidden once the cork is glued on, and this also holds the sleeve in place should any movement happen. The bore is reamed up to size after these tenon sleeves are fitted.
The ones I've seen here in the UK have all held well, even the early XLs from the late '80s. If the wood does swell, the tenons won't bind as the metal (nickel silver) keeps it's dimensions.
But as with all wooden instruments they do have to be played in, and it's the responsibility of the player to maintain them well and have them regularly serviced.
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-05 21:17
Alexi says -
I thought about that, but seeing as the tenons (to me) seem to be very thin already, I thought making them MORE thin wouldn't be the way to go. Or is it usually so slight a change in diameter that it doesn't make a difference?>>
Basically you are removing dust! nothing more.
As for the person saying that turning a tenon on a lathe would make it more out of round.......well, I don't even know how to respond to that.
Walter Grabner
www.clarinetxpress.com
clarinet stuff
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-05 21:32
Well, Walter, it would be extremely helpful to me, and perhaps other readers, if you would respond to it with your own observations and/or experiences. I've seen some pretty 'out of round' instrument sections that, oh-boy, turning 'em on an engine lathe would make things far worse in an instant. That may be because I fuss over mostly lower to mid level student instruments. What I'm trying to glean here, for my own selfish personl gain is how to deal with those Big Bad Bass clarinet tenons.
Others may save the info for that time when they need to discuss an issue with their repair tech. The more informed, the better.
-rb-
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-05 22:14
I had to take the tenons down on my Buffet bass after about 3 months as they used to bind due to the wood swelling, but it only took a couple of skillful turns steadying and rotating with the tenon held against a bench peg rather than between lathe centres, removing the wood with a sharp hand-held scraper (held at an angle to the tenon axis to eliminate digging into the wood) to get a good and wobble-free fit, and it was only the high spots that were causing the trouble. These were easily seen as they'd leave a shiny spot on the tenon where it bound, and were soon eliminated by removing very little of the wood - indeed, it was just dust.
And this was easier said than done on the bottom joint due to the length.
And now, some five years on the tenons are still a perfect fit, free from wobble and binding.
As for Selmers with metal sleeved tenons, see here (it's the 10th picture, and the second from the end, even though the camera shook on this one!):
http://www.selmer.fr/html/english/fabrication/gallery2/galleryfab.htm
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-10-05 22:34)
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Author: Grabnerwg
Date: 2005-10-05 22:27
<<Well, Walter, it would be extremely helpful to me, and perhaps other readers, if you would respond to it with your own observations and/or experiences. I've seen some pretty 'out of round' instrument sections that, oh-boy, turning 'em on an engine lathe would make things far worse in an instant.>>
I still don't understand. Turning an out of round tenon on a lathe is probably the ONLY good way to correct it. I assume you want the tenon conpletely concentric with the bore. If you mount the joint correctly, suspending it using the interior bore, then removing the excess material on the outside, this would take care of the problem.
I have been making barrels on the lathe for years now, and that is the technique I use to make the tenons concenctirc with the bore ( before hand reaming) and making the exterior of the barrel totally concentric with the tenon.
Perhaps we're just having a semantic disagreement?
Walter
www.clarinetxpress.com
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Author: ron b
Date: 2005-10-05 23:55
I don't quite understand, Chris. A bench peg is not a turning operation. For taking down those annoying high spots, the peg is ideal. If you can see the shiny spots where it's rubbing, great; you can knock those off in a jiffy.
Semantics may well be my hangup, Walter. I'm not the most adept person around at explaining myself verbally or in writing, I'm more visually oriented. And, we're assuming many things. Assuming the Bore is round and the outside is not, a lathe would be the perfect solution. But, often enough the whole thing is [minutely] oblong rather than round. Even when filling chips I prefer to file and sand instead of using the lathe... much faster, for me anyway, and just as neat a finish.
If we're concerned with only the outside, not the bore, I totally agree with you. The lathe will make it verrry round indeed 
rb
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-10-06 09:07
I held the joint with the tenon against the bench peg and turned it with one hand while holding the scraper with the other, in a primitive lathe fashion as I am in effect turning the joint to remove material - although in engineering terms this won't be regarded as turning as no machinery is involved.
It's much quicker to do it this way rather than mounting in a lathe as you can check the progress of the fit, and there's no worry about having to line the joint up each time it's put back in the lathe, plus the fact I haven't got a lathe with a bed long enough to take a bass clarinet bottom joint.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-10-07 12:15
I, too remove 'dust' from the shiny high spots, either with a hand scraper, or with a modified cylindrical milling 'flat fissure' burr, about 6 mm diameter, in my dental handpiece.... excellent control!.... still only dust is removed.
I long ago learnt not to trust that the outside diameter of the tenon was concentric with the END of the bore. The end of the bore is often slightly damaged or has off-centre wear (perhaps from a pull-through being repeatedly pulled out at an angle), or has other distortion (possibly from uneven stress relief in the timber). Especially older instruments.
What appears as a high spot on a tenon, once a joint is mounted on my lathe between centres, may not be the binding area at all.
If I do need to turn the outside of a tenon in the lathe, I often mount the end furthest from the chuck in a fixed-steady + roller bearing + bush arrangement, rather than a live centre in the bore, so it turns true to the OUTSIDE diameter of the body.
I appreciate that the ideal is that the bore is circular in cross-section and concentric with the tenon and outer body, but that is not always viable, and compromises are needed.
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