 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-16 00:05
Very interesting! I'm reading Anatomy of the Orchestra from it. I just learned some new information that I didn't know!
Yeah, I wonder if they'll get in trouble as well.
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Author: psychotic lil clarinet girl (don't as
Date: 2005-08-16 00:11
wow... There are restricted pages you can't view.
"As part of our efforts to protect a book's copyright, a set of pages in every in-copyright book will be unavailable to all users."
They already let you view more than half the book... This is very interesting.
Wow... and there is also a whole book on orchestration that I don't have to buy! yay... This helps with my thread from a few days ago.
Post Edited (2005-08-16 00:14)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-16 00:20
It's more than 1/2 - and was easy to figure out how too.
So their "security measures" aren't really measures much at all.
At least right now
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Author: Clarinetgirl06
Date: 2005-08-16 00:21
"Wow... and there is also a whole book on orchestration that I don't have to buy! yay... This helps with my thread from a few days ago."
I actually thought about your thread when I was looking through the results that popped up. Good luck!
Again, thanks for the link David! Very cool!
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Author: susieray
Date: 2005-08-16 00:25
They let you view a lot of each book, but they do have it set up so you cannot print any copies. Just out of curiousity, I tried to print a couple of pages and they come up blank. So you still need to buy the actual book if you want to be able to sit down and read it, or refer back to it from time to time.
Sue
Post Edited (2005-08-16 02:14)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-08-16 01:39
Hi,
Let me put on my semi-retired professor's hat and stand behind the lectern for a moment. I speak as someone that does a good bit of academic research and still teaches students how to do it.
Specifically, there are several issues that emerge when we consider that Google wants to scan every book in the world (and I assume every other publication).
1. Academic authors and scholarly journals do not make a lot of money; these types of publications are not "Best Sellers." In fact, most journals do not get by except for internal subsidies and/or small grants that supplement subscriptions. If people can get these for free, there may be a very significant trickle-down effect that will eliminate the very minimal fiscal support generated. It is hard to imagine that the editors of a scholarly journal like Aviation, Space, and Environmental Medicine which has a library subsription rate of about $1,500 per year will let their work be free in digital form. I realize that publications can opt out so but what are we left with?
2. By having people be able to access all the books and journal, will libraries and the associated research that takes place there end? Being able to grab "the low-hanging fruit" from the comfort of your own home is appealing but will we, over time, create researchers that can't do library research (a lot of times, one stumbles on to a terrific source by accident while looking among the stacks).
3. Many pieces of significant historical research material are in special or archive collections. I am doubtful that libaries or repositories will be willing to allow access for digitizing (and sometimes, this is the best stuff).
4. IMHO digital copies still need to be converted to paper for accurate review (I do not think I am alone in having a difficult time reading from the screen).
Class dismissed!
HRL
Post Edited (2005-08-16 02:23)
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-16 03:36
Can't print?
uh, yes - you can print. (but you have to know how to)
Again, it just isn't secure at all.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2005-08-16 15:06
For out-of-copyright works, Google Print will print all or part of a book, just like Project Gutenberg http://www.gutenberg.org/ or The Online Books Page http://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu. No one disputes their right to do this (although there are gray areas around the edges, as shown by the recent Hyperion and Naxos cases).
For copyrighted works, Google Print lets the copyright owner opt out completely, or permit just a few pages to be shown (typically the cover, title page, copyright page, table of contents and a few pages of text), or a specified 5 pages of text at a time.
There's a clash of rights on this. Copyright owners want the display to be "opt-in" -- that is, nothing can be shown without their prior permission. Google argues that the doctrine "fair use" permits them to quote brief passages without permission. Five pages out of an entire book would, at least in most cases, be fair use. A whole book, 5 pages at a time, is a closer call, and probably not fair use.
Google Print puts a notice on each page that the material is copyrighted. See, for example, http://print.google.com/print?id=np32fqZngNIC&pg=PR5&lpg=PR5&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Dclarinet&sig=y6g_Tdhh49B0rxbJ0eqCOWJzO1I. Also, if you search within the book, the print function is disabled. See http://print.google.com/print?id=np32fqZngNIC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=clarinet&prev=http://print.google.com/print%3Fq%3Dclarinet&sig=wUsMoe0FPn6nY89yUQDRD9N6W6s. If you try to print, you get only a blank.
It's possible to get around this by reading the entire book online, 5 pages at a time, or to print the book by storing one page image at a time to the Clipboard and pasting it into a blank Word document. However, this is clumsy enough that copyright owners don't worry about it, any more than they worry about someone standing at a copier for an hour and copying every page of a book. Too few people will do it to make a difference. Instant digital downloads are what the owners want (and arguably need) to stop.
As a lawyer, I think that Google could win a lawsuit, but it's not a sure thing. Remember also that other countries have different and more restrictive copyright statutes, and Google is already being sued in Britain and France. Also remember that copyright owners with enough political clout can get Congress to change the statutes to give them rights that most of us would object to.
Hank - These days, anyone can go into a research library with a camera the size of a credit card (or built into an easily concealable cell phone) and bring out the good stuff. While I don't agree with those who say "information should always be free," I think that perpetual proprietary rights in important works are a bad idea. At least the out-of-copyright pieces of significant historical research material in special or archive collections should be freely available for digitizing. The musical world was better off after Mozart went to hear the "for Vatican use only" Allegri Miserere in the Sistine Chapel and wrote it out afterward, and I for one am happy that the Dead Sea Scrolls have been spirited out from the exclusive view of a few specialists and made available to other scholars and the public.
The only thing that's certain is that we haven't seen the end of it. These are indeed "interesting times."
Ken Shaw
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-08-16 15:23
TK you, Ken, for a lawyer's viewing of a delicate subject. It helps all of us understand a complex set of laws and may guide our actions. It's provision-for in our Constitution sets a "reasonable tone", to me. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-08-16 15:50
Yes, thanks Ken for obviously astute comments...
Bob Draznik
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-16 16:07
Ken Shaw wrote:
> It's possible to get around this by reading the entire book
> online, 5 pages at a time, or to print the book by storing one
> page image at a time to the Clipboard and pasting it into a
> blank Word document.
It took me about 20 minutes to write a script that pulled about 50% of a book out (both protected and unprotected; Google adds a few more pages if you're a member). I can now use that script to pull about the same amount out of any other book. That's significantly more than the guidelines for "fair use" state.
It's a slippery slope ...
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-16 17:00
At least you can write the script  (I sure can't)
Here's the problem (to me):
They created a database without the copywrite holder's permission. That is plain and simple illegal for them to have that data on their servers. (as far as I know)
Also, the "opt out" is a complete crock of crap - copyright is an "opt in", not
"opt out" situation as it well should be.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-17 14:36
One other thing that can be done is to save the page.
That's almost better than being able to print.
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2005-08-17 15:17
Although I applaud Google's idea I have some real issues with how they are going about it.
First, I find it arrogant in the extreme that Google scanned books in mass and announced that if you "didn't" want your copyrighted material included to inform them. That to me is just the wrong approach. I see that as no different than a thief saying, if you don't want me to rob your house, tell me otherwise I will!
Second, the material is not secure as has already been demonstrated.
I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV but I thought copying and storing copyrighted material in electronic format without permission was a violation, at least my two books contain wording to that effect!
Best
Rick
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-08-17 15:29
I was telling a student last night about it and comparing the "tell me not to rob your house and I won't" analogy too.
Copyright has never been an "opt out" of kind of thing. The Copyright Laws "opted out" in the first place
btw- mp3.com which at one point had been valued at 2 BILLION DOLLARS had made a stupid mistake like that too. They had created a database of recordings which was completely illegal as they hadn't gotten the labels permission to do so. They ended up being bought out by Vivendi/Universal for $300 Million after being raked over the coals for doing so.
It was stupid, really stupid and arrogant - I would have told them so if they had asked me, but they didn't. (I was their top ranked artist promoter for 3 years)
---------------------------------------------
Ahhhhhh! Was just looking at recipes and copied so many from one book that I ended up just buying the book at Amazon.
Post Edited (2005-08-17 16:02)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2005-08-17 15:40
For followups to this I now suggest searching the news sites; they'll have (possibly!) more accurate and up-to-date info, and a lot of real lawyers are stepping in.
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