 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-07 21:38
I am having some bass issues. I wont be seeing my clarinet teacher for another month (due to new england music fest and all-state music fest, along with a vacation and band competition...), so I figure i can seek help here.
i don't know if it's me, or the clarinet...
A tech taught me how to test if the clarinet has any leaky pads, so I did this on the bass (a buffet....not sure what model...R-13?...the buffet MP- I know...it's the school's clar., or else I'd buy a new MP for it, and an eddie daniels rovner ligature)- and the pads were fine. however I am having a lot of trouble playing the higher notes without squeaking and going over the break is next to impossible. I would blame it on the reed, however, it does this even on a good/decent reed (which is usually a Vandoren 3.5). I am wondering if what I have described might be results of 1. bad bass embrochure, 2. not having the bass in the correct playing position, or etc.
thanks
-Lindsie
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Author: Alexis
Date: 2005-03-07 21:54
I would say the mouthpiece you have there would certainly not help your problems. As for your embouchure or playing position it would be quite difficult to say. Think about relaxing on the higher notes and realise that you are playing notes that are an octave lower than regular clarinet. I know that may sound obvious, but your oral cavity may be playing the 2nd register as if it is a soprano clarinet.
If this doesn't help, the best thing to do is to get someone more experienced to play the instrument with your setup and see how it works.
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Author: BassClarinetGirl
Date: 2005-03-07 22:04
bass clarinets are notorious for being hard to play over the break. Try holding your notes out until you find a good embrochure that plays the higher notes easily and in tune. I think it really is an issue of adjusting your embrochure- my friend can't play her bass over a mid-staff E, but I can play it all the way up to high C without problems. I use a fairly firm embrouchure for the high notes, but try to drop my jaw. You may also wan to experiment with slightly softer/harder reeds to find what works for you.
Becca
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2005-03-07 22:35
My 2 1/2 cents worth, is your B C has a few leaks. Perhaps non-coordination of the register/Bb pad keying, a poorly-seating thumb pad, etc can cause all sorts of strange behavior. Your quite hard reed often makes things worse, I like 'em soft with an open mp ! Years ago I just gave up trying B C's having only one register key, [it needs 2 or more!! {D R K's}, to make the mid-staff B, C, C#, D , D# to play easily andsound like the adjacent notes, IMHO] . Some S R K's can be made to sound civilized , ask Dave S, so tell us what you play and we may be able to help [some]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2005-03-07 22:38
Is this a recent development, i.e., have you been playing the instrument for awhile without the problems?
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2005-03-07 23:19
I would recommend trying a 2 1/2 and a 3 reed, just to see if that helps.
Are you planning on playing Bass Clarinet regularly in the future? While I was in college and playing school instruments I bought my own mouthpiece and it helped me tremendously. Not only did I have my own setup with me but I didn't have to share the nasty mouthpiece with any nasty players in the other bands! (Like the hairy guy who didn't brush his teeth...)
Also might be a leak (as mentioned earlier). Might help to have it taken in to the shop for a look if that's possible.
Good luck!
Michelle
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Author: alto_and_bass_clarinetist
Date: 2005-03-08 01:03
I also have this problem at times, though my school bass clarinets are worse than yours (or at least the one you described). I have Selmer Bass Clarinets, designed for marching I believe, as they do not come with a bell that allows a floorpeg, come with built-in lyres/flip-folders, and are made out a temperature-resistant plastic. It really messes with your tone/note when you try to reach the upper registers. I use the technique described above: think you are playing a lower note than you actually are, (octave or fifth below - equivalent to no register key - usually works for me) though this can only get you so far... Good luck!
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 02:04
Quote:
Is this a recent development, i.e., have you been playing the instrument for awhile without the problems? no [sad] I have had better luck with the high notes before, but they have never been 'easy' to get out. I suppose I should take into account the fact that I started bass clarinet around october/november (2004) or so, and don't get a chance to practice at all. In fact, the only time I ever really play it is monday nights at town band. Now that we're back on a normal schedule I might take it home a few nights a week and now that all my auditions are over and done with (for the most part) and the festivals are all pretty much ending, I might be able to work with my teacher.
but still, I have been told that picking up bass after soprano clar. is simple. And I'm fine on the low notes. It's just going over the break is tricky. And, like I said, the high notes are iffy. I can get up to a high C...when I'm lucky a C# or D (the ledger line notes, that is to say). Sometimes they come out with ease and sometimes they sound frail, like a child is playing it or something. Or like I'm anemic! (I have started blowing more). On my soprano clarinet I loosen my embrochure for the higher notes to be in tune. So should I be tightening up or loosening up?
and also- my band director saw me playing it today and said that my chin was pointing down... so should my chin be level with the ground?
I was also told by someone who has been playing since last year that the bass is supposed to kind of enter the mouth upwardly (as if you were playing a soprano), rather than straight in, with the MP parallel to the ground. I dont know how else to explain it.
I am also a bit confused as to how you are supposed to hold it and...well, does anyone have any pictures of bass clarinet embrochure and the way your supposed to sit, and where the bass is positioned? visuals help me a lot.
I'd ask my clar. teacher, but I wont see her for a month and she doesnt have a bass of her owb [yet], so she cant really demonstrate things for me unless she uses mine.
in regards to reeds... I was told you're not supposed to go down or up in thickness, that you should stick with the same thickness. However, on my soprano, I play vandoren FOURS, so the vandoren 3.5s I have been playing are softer. should I stick with 3.5s? go softer? or go to my usual 4?? I'm afraid 3s or 2.5s will be too soft if I am used to 4s...
-Lindsie
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-03-08 03:33
Just because you can perform on a hard reed doesn't mean that you should. I have used Van Dorn 4 hardness reeds in the past (and still do on rock-style baritone sax gigs). But, I get far better results on the bass clarinet with an open mouthpiece (Selmer G, currently) combined with a 2 or 2.5 reed. Better sound, better transitions between registers and over the register key throw points, and a much nicer, richer sound.
My first concern, though, if I was in your shoes would be with the leaks that are almost certainly causing your problems. If it's a school horn and it's been used by others, it's a dead cert that there are misaligned pads on the horn. My prescription for "good bass clarinet experiences" always includes exclusive use of the horn and a trip to a quality repair person (not just the production line guy that the school gets under their maintenance contract). Every student that I have taught has benefited from this approach, no exception.
Once that's done, it's time to start fooling with the "setup". Most bass clarinet players when I was a youngster were given a horn and a mouthpiece and told to go to. It's cheaper that way, but it also ensures that you get the equipment that is deemed best for the "average" school bass clarinet player. If you stick with it, the "average" approach is likely to hold you back. It's going to be some trouble, and it may cost a little money, but your teacher should be able to let you try a number of mouthpiece and reed combinations.
Going on from there depends in large part on how far you are planning to go. A pro neck, or a pro horn is a big step, one that most won't want to take. But, with a little care and a lot of practice, you can still go very far on a school horn.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 03:42
actually, the bass I am using is fairly new. If I am not mistaken, it was purchased (not sure, but I think it was used...knowing our budget, but it could have been new...) LAST YEAR and used by two people- a friend of mine who takes good care of the bass, and myself. this one girl used it while the one she used got fixed, and I guess she bent a key...I think. I'll check that out... and another friend of mine used it for a festival, but she took very good care of it. The only person who uses it on a daily basis is my afformentioned friend. me- once a week until I begin practicing.
I will request that the bass is taken into a tech, i have the feeling there might be a leak... i'll aslo request a new MP, don't know if it'll happen (the band room just flooded- a lot of expensive equipment ruined...)
thanks for the advice
-Lindsie
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Author: Shorthand
Date: 2005-03-08 04:25
God knows, basses can leak. Its a result of the long keywork and the fact that there is a bridge key (or really two).
While a leak light is the offical way to diagnose a leak, we have options that one doesn't have on a Bb. You can play with one hand and check for not tight-fitting pads by simply pressing on them. In all likelyhood an adjusting screw has come loose or a cork has worn down - as opposed to a pad coming loose and mis-aligning on the hole.
To diagnose, start at clarion high C and work down chromatically until you hear the tone become fuzzy. (If its fuzzy on high C, you likely have a register key issue.)
Once you have a few suspect keys, you can use your free hand (or just a free finger) to press down on them and see if that helps.
The keys that leak are often the ones that you press down but aren't directly under your fingers, especially the pad above your fingers for clarion F and F#. Sometimes this is just a bridge-key alignment issue, and sometimes you have to attack the adjustment screws.
Other common culprits are throat G# (loose spring) and the RH index finger side keys (though not nearly so much so on modern horns where these keys rotate around shafts as opposed to being a scaled up version of the Bb mechanism.)
Finally, there is the register key. A bass clarinet register key is based on a balance of forces (stronger and weaker springs working against each other)and is a fundamentally different mechanism on each brand. You can get yourself into trouble tinkering with it, but if you intend to keep the bass up, you're going to have to learn sometime. Certainly don't attack it with pliers for the first time if you're within a day or two of rehearsal or most definitely a concert.
If all of this is a little too daunting, you might just have to take it in for service yourself and pay for it yourself. You'll get better service and you can request a quick turnaround - a leak is usually just a small adjustment and if you're lucky, the tech can do it while you wait.
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Author: graham
Date: 2005-03-08 08:10
You need to check things in order. First, check that the instrument is mechanically OK. An experienced player can help, or a technician. If that is OK then look at the reed/mouthpiece situation. You should not assume that the reed must be your usual strength. Everything depends on the reed's match to the facing of that particular mouthpiece. It is also likely that a softer set up is in any case sensible for a bass. They eat air, and the harder the set up the less distance you can go. It is more common for the upper register to work well on a soft set up than a hard one. As you do relatively litttle bass playing you have to be practical about what degree of resistance in your set up you can cope with. It may well not be as much as on an instrument you play more regularly.
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 11:42
how much are bass MPs? I am purchasing a new soprano MP for myself and am adament to spend money on a SCHOOL instrument, especially since I don't often play it and I am leaving in June.
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-03-08 15:10
A "decent" bass clarinet mouthpiece can cost up in the $140 range, depending on where you purchase it. If you know which lay will suit you, you can order them from the on-line discount houses with confidence and thus get the lowest price.
However, one of the problems with any "large instrument" is that it's harder to find an assortment of anything to try first before you buy. If your teacher only has one or two bass mouthpieces, you don't have much of a field from which to choose. As a result, just like most get a particular model of clarinet, most never get to sample a variety of mouthpieces for large instruments like the bass.
Being an old coot (56 this year) with a comfortable job and some disposable income to spare, I've never been too hesitant to obtain a field of choices when making a mouthpiece selection. (To witness this, you only need to look at my varied and space consuming pile of baritone sax mouthpieces.) But, for many, many, MANY years, I've been using the same two Selmer bass clarinet mouthpieces that I "acquired" when doing an instrument demo for the firm way back in the early 1960's. C and C* have served me pretty well over the years, but the lay was on the "tight" side compared to the sax and clarinet mouthpieces that I use these days, playing mostly shows, rock and pop.
Well, after rummaging around in the retail market ("Got any bass clarinet mouthpieces?" "Sure, we've got a C* here!" being the usual answer), I finally went and ordered one, ponying up the $150 or so that it cost. Since I've grown to like "open" mouthpieces, I shot for the high end of the spectrum and went with a G facing.
Result. Very nice, thank you. Using the open facing has allowed me to fall back to the softer reeds that yield the tone I'm looking for, all the while still permitting the facility in the upper registers. It's a bit harder on the jaw muscles, but worth the effort.
However, since most don't have the $130 plus that even a "commercial" new bass clarinet mouthpiece is going to cost, it's unlikely that there'll be much experimentation. Look to your teacher, and hope for the best...
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 15:20
ah, never mind. I heard my friend playing the bass today and so it can't possibly have any problems (aside from a bad MP)- he says HE fixed the bent key ![[right]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie8.gif) however, he was playing on the very same instrument, MP, lig, and even same crappy, chipped, warped, 3.5 vandoren bass reed, and he sounded fine. He was getting more volume, could go over the break just fine, and could play up to a high clarion C (2 ledger lines). It souned a little thin, but his asensions were smooth and there were no squeaks. so it must just be me. I guess I'll have some bass lessons...
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Author: Terry Stibal
Date: 2005-03-08 15:28
I'd not be so quick to blame myself, if I were you. The other player may have learned to accommodate the problems with the horn, for example. A vise like grip applied where you know that you need to do it will close some slightly out of true keywork, but only at the expense of overall fingering facility and the like.
All of us have learned to "work around" problems for the short term, even to the extent of having a key or fingering that just "doesn't work". It doesn't mean that it can't be done, but it is more trouble to do it in the long run.
(And, as you spend more time in clarinet playing, you'll learn some of the tricks that you need to "get by". I hope that it never gets to the extreme of having to fix a low C tone hole on a sax with a Vicegrip pliers (true story), but you'll learn from experience.)
On the other hand, if you're only going to be bass-based for a short period of time (as it appears is the case from your first posting), maybe all of this worrying is for nought.
leader of Houston's Sounds Of The South Dance Orchestra
info@sotsdo.com
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