 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-03-07 16:25
My musical interests and CD collection are 99% classical, but I do have a couple of CDs of clarinet "greats":
Artie Shaw "Traffic Jam" issued by Hallmark
Benny Goodman issued in the "Jazz Masters 33" series
I find the contrast between these discs confirms Artie's famous comment to the effect that Benny played the clarinet and Artie played music. In fact I find the Goodman disc unlistenable - it's just a lot of twiddly showing off, by someone who can't even play all that well.
These Goodman recordings are "taken from the twilight of the clarinet master's career", so maybe they don't show him at his best. What Goodman disc would the panel recommend - or does the panel agree that Artie was dead right?
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2005-03-07 16:39
Two great clarinetists. It's reasonable to prefer one over the other (I prefer Buddy DeFranco to both) but deciding if one is better than the other is a pointless exercise.
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Author: john gibson
Date: 2005-03-07 16:41
Artie Shaw IMO was the better of the two, but I disagree that Benny was just a "twiddler". He was very good at technique......but so was Artie , though I think he had a better feel for improv and music in general.
Get the Artie Shaw box set, and Benny's Carnegie Hall box set. Both show great influence on clarinetting.....
JG
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2005-03-07 17:18
Robert - despite the title of my post, I wasn't trying to decide which was better. The point was that I was very disappointed with the Goodman disk, which fell far below my expectations. I really wanted to know whether I was being unfair to judge Goodman on the basis of these late recordings.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-07 17:32
I have always thought of Goodman as over rated. To me, he did have great mastering of the clarinet, but lacked some sort of "soul" in his playing. Maybe it was the era that dictated how he played. I do think that Shaw was a musician that could produce great music even if he didn't have a clarinet on hand. Listening to Shaw I sometimes feel that the clarinet was only a vehicle for his music. Where as Goodman, I think used music as his vehicle for the clarinet.
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Author: clarinets1
Date: 2005-03-07 17:37
i personally prefer Benny over Artie, though both were great players in their own right. Goodman was the "prodigy", showing tremendous talent at a young age. perhaps I just prefer his style over Shaw's. i would have to agree with a previous poster, in that fighting over who was "better" is fruitless and insulting to both musicians.
~~JK
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Author: Robert Small
Date: 2005-03-07 17:48
I'm not familiar with Benny's later recordings. But if he was well past his prime when they were made they wouldn't give a true indication of his ability. Other great players recorded when they were on the downgrade of their careers. Lester Young made some recordings near the end of his life when his health was failing and this is noticeable on some of the tunes. You need to listen to a musician's work over the span of his career to accurately guage his stature.
Post Edited (2005-03-07 18:22)
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2005-03-07 20:27
Its because of guys like Benny Goodman the Clarinet itself has attained more fame & popularity then some other orchestra instruments. The man helped make the instrument very popular. I now prefer Pete Fountain, probably because I like the music he plays.
Fred
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-07 21:00
I love Benny Goodman
If you want to hear some good recordings, try the Ken Burns Jazz CD- that's a good compilation. there's also a good boxset of 4 CDs, but I don't remember what it's called. I'll get back to you on that one.
-Lindsie
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-03-07 21:12
I actually prefer BG's playing as a member of his Sextet.
Bob Draznik
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Author: clarnibass
Date: 2005-03-07 21:36
David Peacham please contact me at clarnibass@yahoo.com I can help you with something.
Thanks.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-03-07 22:11
I wish they were BOTH still around. Two giants of the clarinet.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: jack
Date: 2005-03-08 00:57
Benny didn't have the title - The King of Swing - for nothing. The music he produced with his trio, quartet and band epitomized the very best that jazz music of the swing era had to offer. If you want to assimilate the essence of jazz music of the 30's and 40's, then dig the King of Swing. His music had the drive, swagger. exuberance and inventiveness that others simply never achieved. Benny was a jazz musician, in my opinion, Artie was not. On what selection did Artie ever generate the "heat" that Benny regularly produced. As far as what to listen too: Someone else aready mentioned the first Carnegie Hall Concert, a desert island recording if there ever was one. Also, be sure to get his trio recordings with Teddy Wilson and Lionel Hampton. To me, it's so silly to hear people being cute about putting Benny down. In the 30's, 40's and 50's, nobody could even begin to touch him, and as far as catching the spirit of the hard driving and thrilling jazz that he produced - I don't think any one has to this day.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-03-08 01:21
Please buy "Benny Goodman: The Complete Trios" Capitol Jazz 21225. Add to this the fact that the man studied with Simeon Bellison and Reginald Kell. Add to this fact that he died with the Brahms sonatas on his music stand. Benny was not a swing musician (like Shaw). He was a great clarinetist. For me, he is in a small handful of the best clarinet players the 20th century gave us.
Bill.
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-08 01:35
Jack:
BG had the title "King of Swing" because Paul Whiteman had already been annointed "King of Jazz." Which is the higher rank, I wonder?
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 02:27
larryb wrote:
> Jack:
> BG had the title "King of Swing" because Paul Whiteman had
> already been annointed "King of Jazz." Which is the higher
> rank, I wonder?
what on earth are you trying to accomplish, saying something like that?! I will label this as my opinion, for fear of other's wrath, but swing and jazz are two different things, larry. Or maybe "jazz" is the broad title which encompasses swing, as well as blues, rock...etc. I mean, really, all jazz is is a style of music that stands out because of its strong and rather flexible rhythms with soloistic lines throughout...mostly improved, mind you. That sounds like it works for generally any type of music, come to think of it. I believe that pretty much sums up folk rock, for example.
so naming someone the "king of jazz" is rather foolish, for jazz is such a broad category. Benny took swing to a new level and made history. He was an astounding player and was not only different because he was one of the few caucausins in that type of music, but also jewish. He broadened his horizons by playing classical, and I don't care what anyone says- he sounds good. maybe not quite charles neidich or sabine meyer... but good.
I haven't heard Paul Whiteman and do not think I have heard Artie shaw (or, consiously known that I was hearing him...I might have...), so I have no opinion on either, however, if I did, I would not compare the two because it is a waste of time. I wonder why you people need to constantly compare and put down someone?! Benny was an excellent player as I am sure Artie was, but why compare them? Why try to say one is not important because his title isn't as "important"? Just sit back and listen to the music. If you don't like it, then dont!
-Lindsie
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-08 02:32
I think that anyone that becomes the first to preform music in a certain way that attracts the masses is titled "The King". The public is the only thing that keeps these preformers as "Kings". Look at the whole Elvis Presley "The King" and Michael Jackson "The King" deal. As a society, we love to idolize musicians and stop listening to music for musics sake instead of for the sake of listening to "The King". I get a kick out of people getting emotional about all of these kings of this and kings of that and forget about listening to music unbiasedly. In my opinion, Goodman had great clarinet skills and did things that no other clarinetist had done. Artie Shaw had incredible musician skills and grabbed the masses more with music than with his clarinet. Both a wonderful addition to the world of jazz.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-03-08 02:42
I have a CD of the benny goodman trio (and later, quartet). Benny Goodman on clarinet, Lionel Hampton on Vibes, Teddy Wilson on piano, Gene Krupa on Drums. That was a very good group and I like that CD a lot!
IMO, If I had to choose, I would prefer Artie's solos to Benny's. Benny was very good, but it seems to me that his solos were all very similar (staying mainly around the arpeggiated notes) whereas Artie seemed to go more outside and around them. Maybe I'm wrong, but Artie's solos always got me saying "wow" a little more often than Benny's. Not to mention his proficiency with a gliss. Unbelievable!!!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-08 02:45
music_is_life wrote:
> Benny...
> because he was one of the few caucausins in that type of music,
> but also jewish
How is being Jewish relevant?
So were:
Artie Shaw
Harry James
Ziggy Elman
Stan Getz
Lee Konitz
Herbie Mann
Mezz Mezzrow
Red Rodney
Mel Torme
and Buddy Rich (Jewish father)
and probably MANY others I've forgotten about ...GBK
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Author: music_is_life
Date: 2005-03-08 02:56
I don't know! I was just trying to make a point that he was unique...or at least to me. but your list is long. anyway, that wasn't my central theme. I was just attempting to point out that people should stop comparing and throwing out broad comments putting Benny down (i.e. "I have always thought of Goodman as over rated.") and just enjoy the music. like whoever you want, but dont put the other guy down while you're at it.
I'm going to buy some Artie Shaw CDs so I don't feel so ignorant. I just love jazz/big band/swing music!
-Lindsie
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Author: mkybrain
Date: 2005-03-08 03:33
have you listened to the NPR interview of Artie? If i remember correctly, he thought the fact that they were both jewish and decendants of Russians(i think that is correct) was some what significant. Of course I might be wrong, but i thought i remember him commenting on that.
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-03-08 14:43
Saying Goodman was over rated is not putting him down. Following up with why I thought he was over rated is not "throwing out broad comments". Unlike the original poster, I don't find Goodman unlistenable. I just think too big a deal was and still is made over Goodmans abilities and overall musicianship. You can hear it when you compare a Goodman recording to an Artie Shaw recording. I think the same over rating is thrown at Eddie Daniels but I still think he is one great clarinetist.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-03-08 16:03
I would not classify Goodman as overrated, and would not agree with David about all of the particular recordings he mentions. Actually, Benny's ballad playing is particularly good on the 1973 Copenhagan sessions.
Along with Verve's Jazz Masters #33, you can hear more of the same recordings on Verve's "Compact Jazz" collection for Benny.
Primary sources are:
1971 Performance in Stockholm: I agree that Benny is slipping on these, but it's great to hear those old Fletcher Henderson charts in Hi-fi. The small group component of this performance actually had a very fiery version of "Sweet Georgia Brown."
1973 performance with Sextet in Copenhagen: Mostly a very good effort, and far more consistent in quality than Stockholm 1971. Nice band, including Zoot Sims & Bucky Pizzarelli. I would not classify this album as lacking soul, energy or proficiency. I learned a lot from this album as a kid. Too bad it's no longer available in its entirety.
1979 sessions at home. (at the time of the 'sweater story?') Not a fave, I'll admit--and I'm not positive whether they were intended for release.
Certainly, some of Benny's stuff in his older years doesn't touch what he was doing at his peak. Not much to be found either on "Let's Dance Again" or Carnegie Hall 40th Anniv.
I would recommend trying Benny around 1960. There is some blistering stuff there--mostly from an album at Ciro's in Lake Tahoe, I think.
I think that Artie's quoted comment about Benny is a bit petty, but can recall similar pettiness from Benny regarding Pee-Wee Russell. This is the mixed legacy that they leave us. As with most artists, it's generally best to let their horns do the talking.
Allen Cole
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-08 16:32
GBK:
don't forget Willie "the Lion" Smith - the great jewish stride pianist and one of Duke Ellington's biggest influences. And, to make this post even more relevant, "the Lion" introduced Artie Shaw to the Harlem Jazz scene.
Lindsie:
I don't want to get too dogmatic here, but while it's true that "swing" is a subset of "jazz," it is completely wrong to say that "rock" or "folk rock" is also a subset of "jazz." To say so would make the terms all completely meaningless, and they do have some meaning.
As for Paul Whiteman, don't waste your time trying to hunt down his recordings, unless you want to hear what Bix Beiderbecke sounded like in that mammoth orchestra.
Post Edited (2005-03-08 16:36)
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-03-08 17:09
I enjoy listening to both Artie and Benny and appreciate each one for his particular qualities. Like Robert, I find it pointless to try to rank one above the other. Plus, there's a long list of other clarinetists who deserve our attention such as Barney Bigard, Pee Wee Russell, Buddy DeFranco, John LaPorta...to name only a few. And, we should not overlook the great saxophone players who were also fine jazz clarinetists such as Lester Young, Jimmy Dorsey, Phil Woods, etc. There are so many superb jazz clarinetists that it's a shame that we often stop at Artie & Benny and overlook others who were excellent in their own right.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-08 18:49
Roger Aldridge wrote:
> There
> are so many superb jazz clarinetists that it's a shame that we
> often stop at Artie & Benny and overlook others who were
> excellent in their own right.
Including (one of my favorites) Mezz Mezzrow, who was fighting for, and fronting integrated bands decades before Benny Goodman...GBK
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Author: larryb
Date: 2005-03-08 19:18
Mezz Mezzrow!?
a fair clarinetist, but marvelous drug dealer
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-03-08 19:20
larryb wrote:
> but marvelous drug dealer
He was hardly alone (not that it makes it right)...GBK
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2005-03-08 23:36
For those of you interested in Mezz, try this interesting book:
Really the Blues (by Milton "Mezz" Mezzrow and Bernard Wolfe) is a book of his correspondence and reminiscences (at least partly fictional), published in 1946 by Random House.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: ken
Date: 2005-03-09 04:27
One irreconcilable difference I measure between Goodman and Shaw is Goodman stayed in the business for life; he basically recorded and toured (even practiced) full-time up until his death. We watched and listened to him evolve and that's the way it should be; witnessed his career highs and lows, growing old and skills diminish.
This is not the case with Shaw. He had an electively short career, quitting at the top of his game ... we never really saw him even begin to lose his shine. If I'm not mistaken he wasn't even 50 y/o when he hung up the horn and moved on to other pursuits. This "pseudo-illusion" of amazing consistency and brilliance is much of what shapes his legacy, mystery of genius and high achievement of excellence.
Another point, between them there was an unmistakable difference in improvisational concept and application. On the whole, Goodman was a "lick-oriented" player, and Shaw was more "line or riff-oriented". Shaw was more selective with his notes and his melodic style was more refined (not necessarily better). His voice leading created smoother motion with minimum of vertical movement. There was always a sense of anticipation in his ideas, like standing on tip-toe to see over the neighbors' fence.
In short, you listened to Goodman, but you experienced Shaw.
With Goodman, he was more of a lick, pattern and broken chord improviser; one could say, more traditional. This made for exciting solos but too many repetitive patterns can cause the listener's attention to drop off as soon as the ear successfully predicts what will continue. Licks are cool but have limited uses ... more for ornamentation and resolve not core substance. Benny's solos also, "occasionally" had a tendency of sounding like etude exercises, even with his lightening technique he could get note-y.
Benny was such an incredibly hard worker and loyal clarinet subject it would be a dis-service not to acknowledge the eternal impact he made on us and the instrument. In Benny's defense; given the same exact playing conditions and life circumstances, I wonder how Shaw would've rated in his late 60s and after 50 years off the horn. v/r Ken
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Author: allencole
Date: 2005-03-09 06:23
If you're interested in seeing some good playing by Artie (as well as some okay acting) watch for the movie "Second Chorus" which is showing up in the DVD bargain bins. I snagged one at Tower Records. Principals are Fred Astaire, Paulette Goddard and Burgess Meredith. Lots of screen time for Artie in this amusing flick.
Allen Cole
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2005-03-09 13:19
One side of Artie Shaw that's hardly ever mentioned on clarinet or saxophone forums is that he was also a talented composer. Artie's originals that I've heard -- especially on the Gramarcy Five recordings -- are quite good.
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