 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dano
Date: 2005-02-11 14:44
I was asked alot of questions by a new clarinetist and I can't seem to answer them without doubt. Is the quality of the wood really any better on a new top-of-the-line clarinet than on what is referred to as an "intermediate" clarinet? What would make the wood "better"? Aged for a longer period of time? Also, high end clarinets do not have as much stain applied to the wood as the lower end clarinets. Is this just cosmetic? Or does this make a difference in more meaningful ways?
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Author: William
Date: 2005-02-11 15:03
(again) Regarding the LeBlanc line of clarinets, Tom Ridenour told me that all of their wood clarinets come "from the same woodpile". This statement was made during a 1995(ish) visit to the Kenosha facitlity when he was still employed as chief accoustician in charge of designing their (then) new line of Opus/Concerto/Sonata models.
Interestingly, my visit occured about one week after Ricardo Moreles had been there to audition the LeBlancs. And, while I was talking to TR, Eddie Daniels called to schedule a visit. Made me feel kind of......special :>)
(BTW--Eddie wanted Tom to select his clarinet for him!! TR said, "no")
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-11 15:04
The top of the line Clarinets always have better wood than the lower level ones. That's a primary reason a maker will put a bilet of wood aside for an intermediate instrument than a professional one is the selection of the wood.
In my opinion the quality of the wood has an effect on the tonal qualities as well as the feel of the instrument (resistance).
That isn't just my opinion either, but there are those who feel that the wood doesn't impact it at all.
So try what works for you and go with it.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-02-11 15:26
"
In my opinion the quality of the wood has an effect on the tonal qualities as well as the feel of the instrument (resistance)."
....and I can't disagree with you, David. Some may confuse this with the argument about wood versus plastic/metal which is an entirely different subject. Surely the density of the wood has an effect on various factors....machining of the wood being only one. (enjoyed your website too)
Bob Draznik
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-11 15:49
Thanks Bob! One question which is interesting is about the interior bore of the Clarinet:
Some players like seeing a rough bore (grainy) and others want to see a mirror like finish. There are players who only want a grainy bore as they feel that it gives the sound more character. I tend to go for the mirror finish.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2005-02-11 16:08
William wrote:
****Tom Ridenour told me that all of their wood clarinets come "from the same woodpile".****
Wood can be cut deferent ways "from the same woodpile". The cut from the center (heartwood) will be denser (used for the top of the line horns) and around the center not as dense (used for R13, RC, etc.).
So "from the same woodpile" doesn't mean the same (density/quality) wood.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: kal
Date: 2005-02-12 21:09
A little off topic, but... Regarding the comment about stain: why do we stain them black in the first place? The natural color striations in grenadilla are very beautiful. Just a question that has always bugged me.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-02-12 21:50
The same people who don't like natural wood grain also don't like silver tarnigh....maybe. Stain is used on wood in general...not just clarinets...to make the appearance more uniform and, some say, to hide defects.
Let's face it....the only people who really know what wood is used are the people who actually select the "billets" and machine them. If you want to believe the hypesters that's your priviledge. But....in a general way....today's wood for anything.....probably isn't as good as it used to be say 30 or 50 years ago. That's not to say, however, that there are not some excellent pieces of wood somewhere. Haha on the same woodpile comment......all my relatives came from the same ancestors too.
Bob Draznik
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-02-13 10:17
It seems that the staining is more than just staining, but rather it is filling of woodgrain blemishes. For reliable sealing, it is important not to have grain defects at tone hole edges.
IMO it would be rather more difficult to do this blemish-filing inconspicuously without the filler material being black, to make the body uniform in colour.
BTW some people may like a yellow patch on their instrument, like mpingo timber often has near its surface, but I suspect most players would prefer a uniform black.
I'm not sure just how many people prefer the appearance of uneven brown even. Nevertheless, some makers, eg Selmer, offer some of their top instruments in natural or filled. I guess if there were a strong customer preference for unfilled timber then it would be the standard offering from all manufacturers.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-13 12:57
Yes - the stain hides the numerous defects. The higher the level of Clarinet, the lower the number of defects in the wood as that is how they are selected.
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Author: William
Date: 2005-02-13 17:43
Vytas--the implication of TRs comment was that LeBlanc used the same quality wood for all of their clarinets and did not select "better" wood for its top-of-the-line clarinets. It was a response to a question of mine something like, "are the better clarinets (Concerto/Opus) made from better wood?" His response clearly suggested that they were all made from the same quality wood--or, as he said, "from the same woodpile".
The actual "cut" of the wood may have something to do with it--I don't know. I just always have thought Tom's answer was rather interesting.
BTW--wood at the "center" of a tree is not necessarily denser. The closeness of the growth rings determine density and that is regulated by availability of external nutrients, water being the most important. If you lood at a freshly cut tree, you will often notice that the rings are sider toward the center--implying a young growth spurt--and then become uneven as you go outward toward the edge, depending upon the years available growth nuttrients. The closer growth rings indicate the denser wood and these are not neccessarily always at the center of the log.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-13 18:11
At the last Clarinetfest, I spoke to a Buffet rep about how they cut the grenadilla billets and select which ones are used for the Prestige and which for the R-13, etc....
As I expected, he said that, depending on the thickness of the log, the grenadilla is initially cut to approximate length, and then split in either a "+" or "#" pattern (like a tic-tac-toe configuration). This produces from 4 to 9 useable billets.
The center billet (the heartwood) of the # pattern is reserved (and usually used) for the Prestige.
The outer billets are graded and the best of those are used for the R-13. Lesser quality ones (with more imperfections) would be for the less expensive models (E-11, etc...)
Thus theoretically, as far as Buffet is concerned, you probably could say that all their grenadilla initially comes from the "same woodpile." But, it is later sorted, evaluated, and graded into distinctly "different woodpiles"...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2005-02-13 20:32
1. "The closeness of the growth rings determine density "
I'm not convinced...where's the evidence? There is scientific evidence to the effect that each ring represents a year. Narrower rings indicate less growth due to various reasons. However, I am under the impression that density is a function of the variety of timber.....oak, maple, mpingo etc.
2. the + and # pattern for sawing timber is not unique to mpingo,grenadilla, etc etc. but is pretty much standard in the timber industry. The + pattern is used for smaller diameter logs......so each quarter sectiion has part of the "heart" in it.
I have repeatedly heard about X maker using the heartwood for the best horns etc etc. It sounds good and seems to make sense so most of us "buy it". In the final analysis the "best wood" for a clarinet might be the wood that produces a clarinet section that doesn't crack.....that seems to make sense too, doesn't it. I once was told by a veteran steel melting expert that you can't make chicken soup from chicken sxxx.....it made sense to me until years later I discovered they were making it from sxxx....aka "scrap metal".
Bob Draznik
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-02-13 20:48
Although I generally accept the fact that the Buffet Prestige clarinets are made from the center billet of the "#" cutting pattern, that would mean, at the maximum, only 11% of the total number billets are used for the Prestige.
A few questions arise -
Are the number of finished Prestige clarinets held at 11%? What if the demand for Prestige clarinets exceeds 11%? Is wood, other than the "heartwood" used?
Before the Prestige clarinet existed, when the R-13 was the ONLY top of the line Buffet clarinet, where did the center billet (now deemed more valuable by Buffet) go? Did 11% of the standard R-13's get them?
Perhaps some of those great legendary Buffets from the 60's and 70's (which I have a few of) were made from that mysterious center cut of wood.
Or... perhaps it doesn't really matter.
...GBK
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-02-13 22:17
It could be more than 11%, because although for larger #-cut logs may yield 9 pieces, smaller diameters, still #-cut, would yield only 5 usable pieces.
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-13 22:58
It's just like the Vandoren "hand select" reeds. The older boxes had the better reeds in them as there wasn't anything which removed the best looking cane and separated them out.
I wonder what the current situation is still with the wood supply in Africa and at what point we will completely run out of the wood for Clarinets.
And when that happens, what will happen to the value of the current clarinets? (and will players "horde" the instruments)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2005-02-14 10:39
Perhaps it will be re-planted as fast as it is used. Managed forestry...
http://www.blackwoodconservation.org/index.html#map
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2005-02-14 12:01
Try as they are, I highly doubt it will be succesful enough. The supply will dwindle.
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Author: Haegar
Date: 2005-02-17 19:41
>Are the number of finished Prestige clarinets held at 11%?
>What if the demand for Prestige clarinets exceeds 11%?
>Is wood, other than the "heartwood" used?
I heard it other way round, because Buffet is "not only" Buffet, but also e.g. Schreiber (German entry level) and some more brands in TMG (right now) There are sometimes the problem, that they didn't have enough "cheap" outside wood, especially when they had to deliver the "American school orders", so they tend to use better wood down the line, e.g. best wood for the R13, better for the E13 and so on, to get everything on the way that was ordered right in time.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2005-02-17 21:41
Grenadilla was adopted rather late in the development of our modern clarinet, as the body material of choice.
It has a VERY high specific gravity, and produces a very small chip on machining. It holds tight dimensional tolerances, and seems stable over time.
There are other, harder woods of suitable character to make woodwind instrument bodies, but tooling has only recently been hard enough to handle these species (they can be more resinous, which generates heat at the point of work and distorts the chip being removed).
Makers like Rossi and Fox can handle these woods with precision and finesse.
It's the demand of the marketplace that keeps grenadilla on the assembly line.
Let us not forget that world class makers of other woodwinds (such as Howarth) have long ovecome the hurdle of selling professional instruments machined from plastic billets.
Me? I'll keep playing my Hard Rubber Ridenour TR147, thankyouverymuch.
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