 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: andrea
Date: 2000-02-07 15:43
i was wondering if anyone else hears the "ringing" a band has especially when playing transcriptions of orchestral music. it has really bothered me for some time. i have played so few pieces that felt right in band that i have almost given up trying to appreciate it. band can be fun with the violin parts being so "scaley" and technically exciting, but stuff like grainger makes me ill. i go to the university of illinois and the band director here seems to be some big shot grainger guy, so i've heard and played a lot of it. yuk!
i find the same problem in some woodwind quintet transcriptions and even poorly written original pieces, but it is not as severe as the whole band.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-02-07 16:28
I think that some of that may have to do with the fact that you're sitting there <b>playing</b> in the band, and it's really hard to figure out what ot sounds like to an <b>audience</b>. Your acoustic balance is going to be totally screwed up. It's just like listening to a fine clarinet player close up (in a studio) and then in a hall. Same person, different sound. Some of the absolute best don't sound very good in a real close situation (like a university office), but oh my, how they sound in the orchestra or hall!
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 2000-02-07 16:42
The ringing sounds like distortion in the ears, so be careful that you aren't sitting where it is routinely too loud to stand, such as infront of the brass, or if the acoustic is too close for the volume levels. If there is nothing you can do about that, consider cotton wool in the ears. You don't want to go deaf!
Now, as for Grainger, it depends what you are playing, but if it is Lincolnshire Posy, and that is your view, then there is nothing I can say, because that is one of the finest pieces written for any combination.
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Author: J.Butler
Date: 2000-02-07 18:15
Grainger, to me is very enjoyable. I especially like the Lincolnshire, Molly on the Shore, Colonial Songs, and Shepherds'Hey just to mention a few! However, I don't make a steady diet of listening to Grainger all the time.
J. Butler
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Author: andrea
Date: 2000-02-07 18:17
i am speaking of the sound from the point of view of the audience. not that it's too loud or the acoustics are out of whack. there is a sound that a wind ensemble has, even the best ensembles have it, ie military bands. maybe ringing isn't the correct term. maybe fuzzy, or worbbly, or just plain disstortion. as for compositions, lincolnshire posy may be well written, but the sound when it is played has this strange quality. i'm going really dep here because as a serious musician, these things bother me. the way i know it is only in certain combinations is because the same group can play a piece written "correctly" and sound great.
i don't know that much about grainger's life, but maybe the circumstances under which he wrote merit something more than i can afford, but it is my opinion. i did just insert my opinion as an example of what i meant.
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2000-02-07 23:39
I wonder what it is that you are hearing. Something that I noticed when I was in high school (long ago) was that a band with everyone playing really well in tune (an honor band in this case) has a certain sound to it that I didn't hear in my own high school band (which was actually very good). I have rarely heard the sound since. Revelli's Michigan (State?) band visited my college and they had it.
I wouldn't have called it a ringing but it was an "extra" sound.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2000-02-08 00:49
Gary - I have heard of a "shimmer" from good clar sections, dont recall where! I believe Revelli was at Mich U, not my State, our great was Leonard Falcone, baritone horn you wouldn't believe!! Don
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Author: Kim
Date: 2000-02-08 01:19
I have heard this "ringing" from my college clarinet section. It is definitely and "in tune" sound and is sweet to hear it, instead of hearing distorted noise with individuals out of tune. I think that all sections have this sound and when the whole band is in tune with itself it sounds fabulous!
As for Grainger, I love him! Irish Tune from County Derry and Lincolnshire Posy are fabulous!
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-02-08 01:45
The ideal formation of a wind band would be Guarde Republicaine of France. Each player is selected only from principal soloists of the various organization and they work for selected occasions. Jack Lanslow was one of them.
Another element is unity of instrument manufacturers in each section, or at least the difference should be limited only to its lead player. What will happen, when 1st clarinettist plays Wuritzer(dark),2nd 10G(bright),3rd R13(dark),4th Rossi(Mellow). It would be a mess.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2000-02-08 01:47
The ideal formation of a wind band would be Guarde Republicaine of France. Each player is selected only from principal soloists of the various organization and they work for selected occasions. Jack Lanslow was one of them.
Another element is unity of instrument manufacturers in each section, or at least the difference should be limited only to its lead player. What will happen, when 1st clarinettist plays Wuritzer(dark),2nd 10G(bright),3rd R13(dark),4th Rossi(Mellow). It would be a mess.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-02-08 02:49
Hiroshi wrote:
<br>-------------------------------
<br>What will happen, when 1st clarinettist plays Wuritzer(dark),2nd 10G(bright),3rd R13(dark),4th Rossi(Mellow). It would be a mess.
<br>------
<br>Or how about a Yamaha, a Buffet, and a Leblanc? You get the Chicago Symphony Orchestra clarinet section.
<br>
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Author: Lelia
Date: 2000-02-08 15:25
In reading this thread so far I'm not sure everybody is using the word "ringing" to mean the same thing. Andrea, could you describe in a bit more detail what it is you hear, and why it bothers you? I ask because I wonder whether you might be hearing "beats" in the notes. Beats happen when instruments play sightly out of phase with each other and block some of each other's partials.
Beats, and similar acoustical phenomena, are common problems on pipe organs. A pipe organ is basically a large wind ensemble, for all that one set of hands and feet controls the whole "band". Pipe organ builders' specifications frequently recommend that certain ranks of pipes should never be placed close together. They can throw each other out of tune or they can block frequencies in each other's notes. One result can be an unwanted high partial, or the opposite, a resultant, a note an octave below the intended fundamental. Another result is a clanging or jangling sound, or a wah-wah-wah effect, especially on sustained notes. Is that what you're hearing?
If so, maybe the band needs to revise the seating chart. In particular, nobody should be positioned to direct sound straight into the bell of a trombone or a tuba.
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Author: andrea
Date: 2000-02-08 15:52
ok, now we are on the right track. sometimes when i play in band, i swear that i am picking up vibrations on my reed from the players around me. or maybe not the reed, but the air column.
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Author: Willie
Date: 2000-02-08 21:54
From your description, its sounds like an intonation problem. woodwind folks, who are not used to playing in the upper clarion or altissimo range often tend to play flat. Its one of those things you gotta work at and a good tuner is very helpful here. When it comes to shattering crystal or curling toenails, Memorex cant't hold a candle to two or more clarinets playing D3 or E3 with poor intonation.
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Author: Jake Wallace
Date: 2000-02-09 03:34
I'm still not exactly sure about what the whole ringing debate involves, but in response to the whole in-tune sound vs. the out-of-tune sound:
Especially in wind band, tuning is vastly important, yet often overlooked in cases of small degrees of variance (which obviously shouldn't be the case)
I go to a small private high school, which hadn't had a long history of success at the fine arts until the current band director arrived. Since there isn't a huge base of kids at the school who want to start music, and no grade school to prepare instrumentalists, the band is quite small compared to others in the area. (Ours is slightly above 50, with no cuts in the main ensemble. The only prerequisite is the ability to play all scales memorized. Other high schools in the area have 200-300 in their programs.)
The difference between our band and others has to do with tuning and intonation. Many of the other bands delve right into difficult music, and can play it well, but miss some of the more basic things like tone and tuning. The top ensembles can have four or five concerts a year, and play well, but it's almost painful to listen to (I heard a great ensemble play Overture to Candide last year and the piece was difficult to bear because of lack of uniform tonality and tuning. It just sounded rough around the edges.) Our band spends much of the fall season focusing on scale memory, tone, and tuning, as opposed to starting right into the music. The process takes longer, and we play less music than some other ensembles, but the finished product sounds clean and resonant. The band of 50 sounds more powerful than a band of 120 if they're in tune and have a uniform tonal quality. (Pick up a recording of McBeth's 'Of Sailors and Whales' sometime [Southern Music distributes free CDs of it's music. OSaW is on collection #4] and listen to the tonality of the clarinets in the first movement. Not only are they in tune, but they sound as if only one person is playing the melody, due to things like proper intonation and uniform articulation) The idea is to make a band not sound like fifty individuals, but as if the ensemble were much like one instrument that looked like a piano with one person pressing the keys and a sound coming out that seems as if it's all a part of the same instrument.
The sound produced by an inexperienced set of players will seem thinner. Have a group of six or seven clarinets play a unison note, starting off out of tune and slowly merging together towards a unison pitch. Once they reach a happy medium, the sound produced will be much purer and less raspy and dissonant.
If you get a wind band that can perform with a sense of tuning and uniform tonality, then you'll get a ringing quality, in terms of how it will be resonant and pleasing to the ears. An out of tune band will also ring, in terms of a near din-like quality.
*looks up* Whee, that was a bit longwinded. In summation: In tune - Good! Out of tune - Bad.
-Jake Wallace
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